[telackey]

I have been bitten by the unique calibres bug. I am leaning toward the 10mm. It is readily available (when compared to the 9x23mm) and has a very wide range of reloading possibilities. Probable carry load would be the warm (not hot) Proload 180gr Gold Dot @ 1200fps, or something in the 180gr @ 1200-1250fps range.

The 9x23mm, however, offers an extra bullet (never hurts), lighter recoil, and in many ways an even more esoteric choice, though I am not sure it inspires the same awe as the mighty 10.

I am interested in information on both a gunsmithing (longevity, reliability, &c.) and ballistics perspective. Also, I have not heard much on the 9x23mm's performance through heavy clothing, parkas, and such...how does it do?

Incidently, that Tim Bacus, Dane Burns, Richard Heinie, and several other notable persons, carry guns are (or will be, I think, in Mr Bacus case) 9x23mm is what keeps drawing me back to look at it; there must be something to it.

 

[Sean Smith]

9x23 is one of those cartridges that is too good to die, but not marketed enough to thrive. If you can abide .355" bullets then launching them at 1450-1500 FPS from a 5" gun is nothing to sneeze at. The only real strike against it is that it has alot less variety of factory ammo available (basically Winchester or...uh... Winchester?). Any weight you want as long as it's 124gr! In all fairness they are fine loads, though. At least 10mm has factory ammo from Cor-Bon, Federal, Georgia Arms, Pro Load, Remington, Speer, Triton and Winchester to name a few. If you reaload this is of course a non-issue and you have plentiful 9mm bullets to choose from and super-strong brass.

A 10+1 shot 1911 with true maxed-out .357 Magnum ballistics is approaching the holy grail of self-defense handguns in alot of people's eyes.

10mm ballistics can exceed 9x23 by a pretty decent margin with the hottest loads, and of course the bullets are bigger. But just shy of *600* foot-pounds for 9x23 Silvertips is definitely a serious proposition and the only arena where a 10mm will give you a no-kidding advantage over 9x23 IMHO is against ill-tempered woodland critters with the 180gr+ full-power loads.

It would be a tough call for me if I didn't already have 2 10mm pistols (Glock 20C and Colt Delta Elite). :grin:

 

[Guest]

If your choice must be one or the other, I think you need to ask yourself some easy questions:
What do I intend to use this pistol for?
Do I intend to reload?
What are my personal strengths in regard to recoil/gun handling?
If you are looking for a compromise that allows the use of a non-1911 platform look at the Glock model 20/29 with a Barsto 9x23 barrel (see Glock section).
In perspective and within limits the 9x23 can do everything the 10mm can do with less recoil and a higher magazine capacity.
The real difference between 124gr and 175gr Silvertip ammo at almost equal velocity/energy numbers (in common terms I fully recognize the numbers but, in real world ballistics 100-200 fps here or there is not a significant issue once we have achieved adequate expansion and good penetration) is so slight that it is almost a non-issue. The real advantage that 10mm holds is as a game cartridge with 180 and 200 gr soft point bullets at full velocity. I would recommend that you try to find a fellow shooter or range/dealer in your area that has a 10mm and a 9x23 or .38Super and shoot them for comparison, then pick the caliber that you like. Don't sweat the ballistics they are both excellent defensive cartridges, clearly at the top of the handgun "stopping power" equation you can't go wrong with either one.

 

[Chris Oslin]

OK gang, tell me:

How does the 9X23 stack up against the .40 S&W, ballistically speaking? I see that it is a 124 grain bullet moving at what - 1500 fps? WOW!

I really am intrigued at this one.

 

[shootingbuff]

I think that would be an unfair assesment.

A closer comparison would be the Sig round against the 9x23.

To answer your question in a defensive case I think it would depend on the bullet taking into consederation same perp, same spot, same mind set and all etc.

On paper it looks like the @100ftlbs of more energy would go to the 9x23. Doesn't matter if the round zips on through and does not dump its energy.

Now back off to 50 yds plus (if you had or wanted to) the 9x23 is much flatter, less drop and the extra speed helps with wind.

I would like to see some test on the 9x23 with 147gr bullets for penetration and expasion. Any one have this?

If I had to stay with the Glocks lg frame guns then I think the 20 would stay a 10mm and maybe the 29 would be converted if for 2 legged critters. Now in a 1911 platform I think you could not beat the 9x23.

Disclaimer - I have no experince with the 9x23. I have read some threads and articles on it in the last couple of days.

 

[telackey]

Dane Burns has talked about a load he has cooked up with Vectran powder to push a 147gr Gold Dot @ 1400fps. I have not seen tests, but I cannot imagine how that would be a poor performer. Personally, I would not carry a 9x23 with less than 147grs as I like heavy bullets, but I am sure the 124gr stuff works well.

The only question is whether the 147gr Gold Dot will hold up under such high speeds, as it was designed for 9x19. XTPs might be another good choice to try as they are good, tough bullets like the Gold Dot.

 

[Guest]

It may be over simplifying but we are not really comparing Apples to Apples. If we were to look at the cartridge design and power factors equally the .40 S&W is severely lacking in a 9x23/10mm contest and is more in line as an appropriate competitor to the .357 Sig from a 4" barreled pistol.
Truly, the .40S&W with the correct bullet construction and weight is a modest improvement over a good 9mm 127gr JHP +P+ round. The .40S&W is able to achieve this slight advantage so to speak through the use of heavier bullets with a larger starting diameter, however this is a very "slight" advantage. The 9x23 is able to achieve very good performance in the factory loading using the Winchester silvertip round. This is in direct relation to the design of the 9x23 including velocities and energies. If we were to use a standard 9mm silvertip bullet, the round will under penetrate and fragment very quickly as the Winchester Silvertip 115gr 9mm +P+ bullet of days past averaged only 8” of penetration.
I have some fairly limited 9x23 tests but I have spent a fair number of hours testing the .357Sig from a 5" barrel 1911 and the factory .357 Sig velocities are within 5 - 50fps less than the 9x23 factory loadings.
In the 147gr XTP JHP the .357 Sig was a "deep" penetrator averaging 19" of gelatin penetration, I found that at higher velocities the .147gr Hornandy XTP loads did not expand to a larger diameter, they averaged .54-.58 expansion and penetrated to a longer depth. The same loading penetrated 15" from the shorter barrel of the Sig 229 and expanded to .55". I then switched to the excellent Speer Gold Dot 125gr JHP bullet, this load averaged 1,380fps from the P229 and 1,435fps from the 1911. From the Sig P229 the GD expanded to .67" and penetrated to 17". From the 1911 (w/Ed Brown barrel) the GD expanded to .68" and penetrated to 15".
The Winchester 125gr Ranger Talon (RA357SIGT) averaged 1,385fps from the Sig P229; it penetrated to 12" and expanded to .74".
The same loading from the 5" 1911 averaged 1,445fps, it penetrated to 11.5" and expanded to .76", it became very flat nosed.
It should be noted that all three rounds performed very well and not one of the bullets failed/fragmented.

I also tested the Corbon 115gr and 125gr load; they were very poor performers in my opinion as all loadings failed/fragmented from the Sig P229 and completely fragmented from the 1911.
The Corbon 115gr loading averaged 1505fps from the Sig P229, it penetrated (core) to 9” and completely failed/fragmented, the core measured .43”.
From the 5” 1911 it averaged 1,540fps, penetrated to 7.5” (core) and completely failed/fragmented, the core measured a smaller diameter of .41”, I suspect due to higher fragmentation.
The Corbon 125gr loading averaged 1,420fps, penetrated to 13” (core) failed/fragmented measured .40” from the Sig P229.
From the 1911 it averaged 1,460fps, penetrated to 11.5” (core) failed/fragmented, and measured .39”.
*Note: These appear to be the same Sierra JHP bullets Corbon uses in the .9mm loads.

My results may or may not equate to similar 9x23 results but it is fairly easy to see the patterns.

I hope this helps.

 

[telackey]

Thank you kindly, Mr DiFabio. There is a lot of good info there!

Have you happened to conduct anything similiar with the 10mm?

 

[shootingbuff]

Yes thank you for the information. I must say, I like what I see in the Win Ranger.

By chance does someone have experince with the sig round in a model 32 and the 9x23 in a G29? If so how different is the recoil. Does the edge go to the G29 because of a wider grip and hvr bbl? Is one snappier than the other. I would assume the edge in concealment would go to the G32?

Thanks,

sb

 

[Guest]

I do indeed have volumes thousands of pages of test and of info on the 10mm, I first started experimenting with it in 1989. I am now working with the G29 in 9x23, it is difficult to find enough time to test and document all of these loadings and combinations.
Recently, I have been contacted and asked if I would provide all of the information for a seperate website to post all of my results. I am considering the idea although I will need to hire a person just to type and post it all, I have enough info on the 9mm alone to fill several books as I have tested everything from Geco and Bat rounds to Delta frangible rounds. For now I will keep posting my results/info as time permits.
Please remember these results are mine and are my opinions, always test your individual load choices in your equipment/environment.