On 2001-04-29 21:51, Banjoboy wrote:
Any of you guys had any experience with Ciener kits? Got one for my 23 but have'nt tried it yet.
Let The Buyer Beware.
This past winter I finally gave in and traded for a Glock 19.
I also have a Glock 23 which I bought for CC 5 years ago but had used very little.
I thought that one of the 22 LR conversions would be a neat and cheap way to do a lot of practice, and re educate my 1911 trained trigger finger to the Safe Action way of doing things.
Last months American Rifleman featured several 22 LR conversions test and they all seemed to work perfectly.
I was especially impressed with the Jonathan Arthur Ciener conversion which gave nearly target accuracy for 10 rounds at 25 yards averaging around 1 1/2" and unfaltering functioning performance.
The Test article convinced me of the quality of the conversion, and a phone call had my conversion kit under way with 2 spare magazines.
UPS arrived a few days Later, and a certified check for $284.00 was exchanged for my new pride and Joy.
Went straight to my gun room unpacked the very nice package, read all the directions, cleaned the kit, oiled and installed it on my Glock 19.
Inserted a magazine, grabbed a carton of Federal Lightning ammo and off to HCGC to try out my new toy.
Now I'm at the range, can't wait to load up all those magazines and do some serious blasting at the steel plates hanging on the frames.
Wow that magazine is really tight, guess I'm not pressing hard enough on the magazine release. Push harder Norman.... Harder... Harder man Harder.......
Ok something is wrong. Slide is back, Push on the magazine release and press down with your thumb and hope the slide doesn't go forward and mutilate the end of my thumb. Wont go... Push harder you dummy.... Harder!
Well my thumb wont take anymore.
Just happen to have my trusty 1911 and all the "stuff" that goes with it, including the wooden dowel cleaning rod, just the thing to jam on the magazine and get the thing out.
Finally, success. Guess it's just new and tight, It'll get better, right???
Inserted Loaded magazine, aim at target, pull trigger, click. Well the instructions said that would happen for about the first 200 rounds, and then it would be 100% reliable, guaranteed.
Just pull the slide back far enough to cock the thing and retry, "It Will Fire The Next Try" says the manual. Click, try again, click, again, "Bang!.
What do you know, I'm on my way.
Finally emptied the first magazine about 30 clicks and 10 bangs worth.
Now I wonder, would one of the other magazines fit the same, lets find out.
This one seems to go in easier - about 30 more clicks and 10 bangs later the magazine is empty. Now Push Hard on the Magazine release and pull Hard on the Magazine, Cant get it to move, slide back, thumb on the magazine top again. I can just barely push this one out with my thumb.
Once it begins to move it goes out easily. That should satisfy even the most extreme critic.
Lets try the third one, just about the same as the other one.
Let's clean this dude really good and try it again, maybe that's why it goes click, click, click, bang.
Now what is that funny feeling... don't push the patch so fast down the bore, bring it back a couple of times.... hummmmm as I go down the bore at about 2" from the breach end, it gets suddenly easier to push the rod hummmmm... now it's starting to
feel normal again.
Push it through several times, yep, normal resistance, no resistance, normal resistance... could there be a "Bulge" in the barrel?
Get out the sandbags Norman, see how it shoots on paper.
Set up the sandbags and placed a target at 25 yards.
Finally got off 10 Bangs, rush downrange and looks like it's sighted just about right and 10 rounds in a 4" + group. Wow, not nearly as good as the NRA's example.
Well, It's not a target gun Norman, and after all it shouldn't shoot 1" 10 rounders at 25 yards like your S&W 41 and Clark Long Heavy Slide 1911.
After the first box of ammo I'm getting it down to Bang! Bang Click.
I can empty a magazine with an average of only three stoppages per magazine.
Now I'm anxious, rapid fire at the plates and clean every 100 rounds, that should do it.
By 300 rounds I can sometimes get off a full 10 rounds without a malfunction. Still a long way from 100% functioning.
I finish up the 500 rounds and head home.
Now I wonder if the thing would work better on the Glock 23 Frame?
Well it goes on fine. the magazines don't drop free, but can be pulled from the frame without superhuman effort.
Next day, back to the range, six cartons of ammo. Remington High speed (their recommendation) Federal Lighting, Super X, CCI Mini Mag, Winchester Power Point, and Ely 10-X.
Let's try the Remington first, that's what they say they tested this beast with.
Many clicks and 10 bangs later I finished the first magazine. Lets try it on paper.
From the sandbags at 25 yards the first 10 rounds of Remington printed a neat 7" group. (brought along My Tape measure this time.) Five 10 rounders averaged 5".
Clean it up good and try the others.
Best Groups were with Ely 10-X average 3" for Five 10 shot groups. Functions very poor, lots of Clicks before Bang, lots of stove pipe jams.
Federal Lightning performed the best, average of 4" for five 10 round groups. Higher Bang to Click ratio than anything else.
Between rains I spent most of my next two weeks at the range or the local gravel pit.
After 3000 rounds It finally dawned on me that "I've got a lemon."
I called Ciener. Talked to a very nice lady. She told me to ship the kit with my Glock in the shipping carton they had sent it in and they would get it to working correctly.
I told her, "But There Isn't Any Thing Wrong with My Glock", "It's you conversion kit that has the problem. (I have over two thousand rounds of 9mm through my Glock 19 now. No Glock Malfunctions.)
If I want it fixed, I must send the kit & my Glock to them.... Thanks, but no thanks.
Enough is enough. I'll use it until it wont work at all, then trash can it.
Today finished up 4000 rounds through the Ciener Glock Conversion. I can sometimes get 40 to 50 rounds before malfunction (click) and cleaning and oiling again gives me
another 4 or 5 magazines of fun before it begins to malfunction.
Accuracy still is bad! Bulge in the barrel hasn't seemed to change, but of course is still there. I have no way of measuring the inside, but the outside of the barrel is .004" larger than the area immediately behind and ahead of it.
I feel that anyone who purchases the product is entitled to the same quality product that is submitted to magazine editors for testing.
Anyone out there interested in this jewel for 1/2 price? It's yours for $ 140.00 (the kit and two spare magazines.)
CC:Mailing [email protected]
CC:Jonathan Arthur Ciener Inc.
8700 Commerce Street
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920