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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am interested in purchasing a (nother) gun for self-defense. I am specifically focused on a home defense situation where ranges would be no more than 10 to 25 feet. I already own a few guns that would work fine. However, I always find that there is a compromise.
I am interested in a gun that is capable of holding preban magazines that may hold 25-30 rounds. I know there are many who would say if you can't do it with 6 rounds in a .357 magnum or 5-7 rounds in a 12 gauge then you don't know what you are doing. But, I have the frame of mind that tells me "better safe than sorry". I do practice with my guns and I intend to make every shot count, but in the event that for some reason I need more rounds I would like as many rounds as reasonably possible without having to "time out" for reload. I would consider 2-3 armed intruders in my house more than a match for 5 to 7 rounds or even "10" rounds. (Thank you politicians and liberals.) I don't think phrases like "I give" work well in these "potential" scenarios. Furthermore, I don't intend to "give" anything but bullets.
I am considering between a Special Weapons SW-45 in .45 ACP
(See: http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/firear ... index.html )
or a good quality AR-15 type .223.
I might also be interested in the H&K USC .45 ACP carbine
(See: http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/ ), if I could find out and confirm that the USC excepts hi-cap preban magazines. I have seen that the SW-45 does.
The SW-45 is a .45 caliber semiautomatic only version of the H&K MP5. Quality of the SW-45 is supposed to be on par with H&K MP5. It is my understanding that the H&K MP5 is a little better quality than the H&K USC. If anyone knows, please let me know.
I know that both the MP5 and many variations of the AR-15 are both used extensively by police and military forces for close quarters. But, they use significantly different types of ammo. The .223 is a very lightweight and very high velocity bullet. I have heard that it can over penetrate and even penetrate a victim without a significant wound chamber. I have also heard that it can be very effective because it "can" fragment very well because of the high velocities. The MP5 is typically a 9mm, but the SW-45 is a .45 caliber rifle. I have come to the conclusion that the .45 is generally considered to be more effective than the 9mm. But, how does the .45 compare to the .223? It seems to me that the .223 would definitely have an advantage over 50 yards or even more so over 100 yards. But, I am interested in close range.
My only major gripe about these types of weapons is size. (Again, thank you politicians and liberals.) It seems obvious to me that either of these guns would be much more maneuverable and not to mention easier to keep handy if they didn't require a 16" barrel or full size stocks. Obviously, the police and armed forces prefer shorter versions for these close quarters scenarios for obvious reasons. Good for them. I really am glad that they are not restricted. I just wish that politicians and liberals hadn't done so much to restrict myself and others like myself from being able to protect my family, my house and myself as "best as possible"! I don't believe that the police and / or armed forces will be there for me if an intruder breaks into my home. I am sure that when they do show up, it will be too late. Thanks anyway, I will try to defend myself.
I would appreciate any thoughts and comments regarding these different calibers and how they compare for in home self-defense.
I would also greatly appreciate any info available on the SW-45 or any .223 weapons to consider.
And any thoughts on which is best. Please include why.
Thanks,
DDW
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I realize that the SW-45 would run from about $1500 to $2000. I consider this extremely expensive for a gun and much more than I have ever paid. I think the H&K USC goes for about $1000 - $1200, but I am not sure. But, I wouldn't be interested in the USC if I couldn't confirm that it would be able to hold preban magazines of 25- 30 rounds. I know that AR-15 type .223 rifles can go anywhere from $700 - $2000. These are prices that I "may" be willing to pay. I would have to be convinced that I was getting a very nice weapon that fits the bill for what I am looking for better than any other gun available to me for that kind of money.
To further define and describe my preferences, there are two weapons that I have seen that would appear to be right up the alley for what I think I "would like" to have.
Unfortunately, I don't believe I can own either without getting a special permit. I am sure that I would qualify for such a permit, but I don't think I want to pay the high price or go through the hassle involved.
My first preference if not for regulations and price would be the H&K MP5-N:
See: http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/ (click Military/LE then 3rd gun down)
http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/Media/mp5navy_sm.jpg</a>" BORDER="0">
I believe the fact that it has a shorter barrel and a collapsible stock gives it much more maneuverability and ease of storage (keeping handy) than a similar weapon such as the Special Weapons SW-45. The fact that the H&K is a select fire gun would be fun for sport, but I don't see it as necessary for home defense. I would think that a flash suppressor would be beneficial in a home protection environment. I think that it would help you prevent temporary flash blindness for yourself. I also can see where a silencer would be beneficial to prevent temporary ringing of the ears in a home self-defense environment. Guns are very loud indoors and I would think that it would be good to be able to hear what is going on in a self-defense situation. But, I don't have that option thanks to our politicians, unless I want to go through the expense and hassle of a special permit. Sorry, just sharing my thoughts.
The H&K version is in 9mm while the SW-45 is .45 ACP. I prefer the .45, but the regulations for such a gun mean that I also have to have a 16" barrel and a full stock. In any event, the SW-45 is the only real option that I am aware of that is similar the MP5-N and legal without a special permit.
The options from Special Weapons are as follows:
SW-45 (pic is actually SW-5 which looks the same as the SW-45 except different mag):
http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/images/sw5.jpg</a>" BORDER="0">
or the SW-45 F/SUP (pic is SW-5 w/ 10 round mag. Fake Suppressor in welded so it cannot be removed and so barrel = 16")
http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/images/sw5</a>%" BORDER="0">
See: http://www.specialweaponsllc.com/firearms/sporting.html

The H&K USC .45 ACP (not sure if interested unless it holds preban mags of 25-30 rounds):
See: http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/ (Click "Civilian" then click "USC' under rifles on left)
http://www.hecklerkoch-usa.com/Media/usc_sm.jpg</a>" BORDER="0">
On the other hand you have the .223 AR-15 type carbines.
My first choice in this category would be something similar to a gun made by Tromix.
The picture is protected so I cannot add it, but I recommend seeing it. It is very cool!
Must follow 3 steps to see it. Tricky web site!
Go To: http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm
- Scroll to very bottom of page and click "Links"
- Scroll to very bottom of "Links" page and click "Sledge Pistol"
I had contacted Tony Rumore (the owner of Tromix) via e-mail to find out more about this gun. He said, "only one was ever made and he had no intentions of making any others". Too bad.
I wouldn't personally be interested in the scope (probably a laser sight though), but other than that this gun looks to me to potentially be the ideal .223 for home defense.
Unfortunately, I believe this gun would most likely require a special permit.
I am not sure I "completely understand, but I believe the laws are as follows:
I believe I understand this correctly and have reworded to make more since. I in no way intend this to be misleading if I word this incorrectly, mistype, or misunderstand the law. I "believe" the laws are such that a semiautomatic gun can have less than a 16" barrel and be considered a "legal" semiautomatic pistol if it has no more than one of the following"
"(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;"
"(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;"
"(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;"
"(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and"
"(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm"

The Tromix has at least 3 of these criteria: a mag outside the grip, a shroud around the barrel, and it most likely weighs more than 50 ounces.
The only "pistol" type version of a .223 that I know of that is legal without a special permit is the Professional Ordnance Carbon 15 (Type 97)
See: http://www.proord.com/products_ff.html
http://www.proord.com/images/t97_guns.gif</a>" BORDER="0">
It does have a magazine outside of the grip, but at 46 Ounces, no barrel shroud, and that is not a flash suppressor, so it is apparently within legal specs since it only has one exception.
I have seen this gun, but I am not sure how I feel about the quality of it. I believe the sell for from $700 to $1000. I think a barrel shroud would be nice on a gun such as this.
If I wanted a pistol type .223 and did not want to mess with the permit, I would probably have to go with this gun. I at least don't know of any other options. If I were to deal with a 16" barrel and a full stock, I would probably consider other manufacturers. I am open to suggestions.

I would really like some input on how the .45 ACP compares to the .223 for close quarters defense!

Thanks,
DDW
 

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DDW,

If you are going to bother with the bulk and weight of a long gun, use a shotgun or rifle round not a pathetic pistol round. I would not trust any of Special Weapons guns for ANY defensive work. The examples I have examined are poorly made and unreliable. A MP5 is going to cost you $8,000 easily. Its an expensive toy in civilian hands. Using a NFA class gun for defensive shooting is not a great idea legally. Plus, a subgun will be less effective than a plain shotgun or rifle round.

I would go with a .223 with a 16" barrel or a 12 guage. If you want to go hunting indoors use your pistol and a lucky rabbit's foot.

Also, keep a pair of electronic ear muffs on your rifle, especially for indoors use.

Good Luck!





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JM on 2001-09-26 15:00 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JM on 2001-09-26 15:04 ]</font>
 

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Seen those SW things, wouldn't keep one if you gave it to me.

My "house" stuff is Burns' .45, a 12 guage pump shotgun, and a M4 [AR15]. Feel pretty comfortable with any of the 3.

MP5? My opinion is, too damned much money. Unlike the SW thing though, I would take one if you gave it to me. Toss in a suppressor too, please :smile:
 

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DDW,

If it were me, I would stay away from Special Weapons. Quality is no where near HK. Plus, I've heard a lot of people that are much less than satisfied with customer service of SW.

I personally keep .45 pistols, 12 gauge and AR-15 for home defense, and I tend to agree with you that for true close range, .223 has its disadvantages.

As far as I know, the HK USC .45 does not take hi-caps. I believe that was a stipulation for HK to be able to import these weapons.

As for some other choices, have you considered...

- Olympic Arms - they make ARs in various pistol cartridges (9mm, .40, and .45). I believe these would use modified UZI mags. Quality seems decent but probably not to the level of Bushy or Armalite. Although, I would have no problems owning one. 185 or 200 grains worth of .45 cal coming out of a 16" barrel can give you some awesome stopping power, while minimal risk of over-penetration. Plus, you have all the neat AR toys to accessorize.

- UZI - may not be politically correct, but who cares. You can have both 9mm for target, and .45 cal for home defense in the same weapon.

- HK SP89 - this is more expensive but its an HK. They usually run about $3000. Yes, it is 9mm, but it is hi-cap and very portable.

- HK 94 - again, more expensive (around $3000). This is the semi-auto version of the MP5, but has the required 16" barrel. Although, a $200 tax stamp could let you chop the barrel.

- Glock 21, with hi-caps, and a Taylor Freelance +4 extension. Gives you 17 rounds per mag.
 

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In the word of a firearms instructor I had in the academy if you need a long gun you need one that will kill someone. Don't get a pistol caliber carbine. A sub gun is one thing it makes up for poor stopping power with lots of bullets on target quick. A pistol caliber carbine is not like this. Get the 223 carbine.
PAT
 

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Contrary to overwhelming opinion, with proper ammo selection HP or PSP, a .223 can have less penetration than a 9mm .40 or .45 round. With the velocity and lighter grain bullet it tends to frag and lose energy on drywall or plywood, whereas the pistol calibers that are heavier can bore through many layers of drywall while it retains its mass. Don't take anyones word on it, try it for youself at a range with drywall sheets nailed to 2x4's simulating several walls. This is why many teams are starting to utilize .223 carbines not only for long cover purposes, but for entry work as well.
 

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On 2001-10-11 17:41, TurboRocket wrote:
DDW,

If it were me, I would stay away from Special Weapons. Quality is no where near HK. Plus, I've heard a lot of people that are much less than satisfied with customer service of SW.
Boy! That's an understatement. They have one of THE WORST reputation in the industry. And the owner's reputation is probably worse.

Personally, based on your criterion, I'd get an AR-15 lower, modify the hammer and get the pistol buffer so that it can take a pistol caliber upper. Then, get the upper from Olyarms or ASA (though ASA has had some poor customer service complaints in the past). You will then be able to own a pistol and centerfire AR-15.
 

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I would first have to ask you if you are likely to have innocents in the house (family, etc.). Even if this is not a consideration for you, how close are your neighbors and how is their home constructed and how is your home constructed (brick, vinyl siding etc.)? I realize that in most situations when threatened, we would all shoot . To most of us it wouldnt matter if all we had was a .223 even when it might pose a serious risk to others. If were honest with ourselves, our desire for self preservation would prevail over these other concerns. Having said this, it would be far better if we had given thought to these issues ahead of time and made a rational decision about what weapon would be best given our circumstances. You seem to be real hesitant about a 12 gauge due to its low capacity compared to a 30 round .223 mag. You mentioned three armed combatants entering your home. If you had a Rem. 870 rigged to be 7 + 1, that would give you 2 rounds of 00 buck per bad guy and 2 left over just for good measure. With a little practice on tactical reloads you would be surprised how quick and easy it is to reload a 12 gauge. I wouldnt attempt to make up your mind for you on the issue but I'm just not as quick to condemn a 12 gauge over the issue of the capacity. Eight or Nine(depending on the round), .32 caliber projectiles headed downrange in a pattern about 12"-18" (depending on distance) in diameter is extremely lethal. On the other hand if you live alone and out in the middle of no where and you prefer a .223, I would load two mags and clip them together. I would carry a handgun also but that would only be for back up. Always go with the long gun for the primary if given a choice.
 

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Definitely .223!
Of course, you may wish to get a nice .45 to fight your
way to your .223 :p :p :p
 

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Hell with the M79, go with a MK19 and a Ma-Duece for
backup....Course, you could always invite a bunch of
Operators to live around you and be your neighbours :lol:
 
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