[Guest]

Ok,
As I work my way down through the list here are the results/photos from some of the more popular .40S&W loads.

I do not have a lot of these for several reasons:

1. I don't care for .40S&W and I cannot find a good use for it, believe me I "wanted" to believe it offered something.
2. At last count their are over 70 factory JHP loadings available for the .40 S&W.
3. With some exception the results are always so close that it is difficult to find a "top performer", that is good because they are very consistent and the ammo makers do not seem to change bullet designs as quickly and as frequently as they do with the .45acp.

Alright enough of my commentary here are the pics/info:

Group photo.

 

[Guest]

Below in group one from the left:

Also, please note that due to numerous requests I have added expansion and velocity numbers.

Test Gun- Glock 22

Federal 180gr JHP, velocity 940fps, expansion.62", penetration-16.5"

Remington Golden Saber 180gr BJHP, velocity 1,005 fps, expansion .77", penetration-13.0"

 

[Guest]

Below in group two from the left:

Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP, velocity 950fps, expansion .74", penetration 12.5"

If I were to carry a .40, if someone paid me to do so, it would be an HK P7M10 of course and loaded with the .40 Gold Dot. (Ok, maybe a Glock 23 as well w/Heinie sights)

Federal Hydra Shock 180gr JHP, velocity 965fps, expansion .60", penetration 16.0".

All loads were fired from a stock Glock model 22 through one layer of denim shirt material into 10% gelatin chilled for 24hrs @ 40 degrees F.

I do have 165gr pictures but performance is well in a word "disappointing" the expanded diameters are less and penetration nearly mirrors the .180gr loading.

I do have a whole series of test with the various .135gr loads and a section with all five versions of the Winchester Black Talon then Ranger then T series loadings in .40 caliber.

I will either post them here as I get to them or put up a seperate series of pages to hold it all.

_________________
Think, Plan, Train, Be Safe.
Thanks,
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-06-19 20:46 ]</font>

 

[Chad Ward]

David, thanks for the photos and report. I really appreciate it. I'm really disappointed by the performance of the 165gr loads in your tests. I am a .40 fan and carry the 165s regularly on the theory that they're a great compromise between the "too light-too fast" 135s and the "too slow" 180s.

I might have to rethink this.

By the way, one of the reasons I have avoided the 180gr loads is bullet seating depth. The .40 is such a high pressure round that minute differences in bullet depth can make tremendous differences in PSI in the barrel. The 180s, because of their larger size, tend to be seated deeper than the 165/155gr loads -- making that potential kB! safety margin that much smaller.

Any thoughts?

Chad

 

[buzz_knox]

I'm something of a .40 fan myself, preferring mid-weight rounds, like the 155 gr Silvertip.

 

[Guest]

Chad,
The .40 is really a consistently well balanced round and in all fairness my narrative may sound too harsh.

I am a natural skeptic and I really need a valid reason to switch products or systems and I cannot find a valid reason to switch from a 10mm or .45acp 1911 to the .40S&W.

If I choose a smaller frame carry gun it is either an Officers size frame with a commander length slide or a Glock G29.

But those are my opinions, I have an advantage in that I am 6'2" and 280lbs, I wear a size 56 jacket and I can easily conceal two Desert Eagles and an MP5K under each arm.

As to performance differences their really is almost no discernable difference in the .40 caliber 165 and 180 gr weights.

In the right circumstances even the .135gr high velocity limited penetration rounds can be extremely effective; I personally prefer a wider margin of effectiveness.

That does not mean that it should be "abandoned" or that it cannot "do the job", it really is about your preferences and for me a quality .45 or a .10mm provides a solid advantage and to a lesser extent I like the 9x23 and .357Sig. in a "smaller" gun.

It is a matter of taste and what you prefer, I equate it to the latest round of luxury SUV's that really use a car chassis with a truck body style.
They have all of the disadvantages of a car when you compare them to a "real" 4wd and they have all of the disadvantages of the truck when you compare them to a true luxury car.

But, they are popular and they provide a series of compromises that are not truly objectionable and they fit a wide variety of uses and fail to do any particular task as well as the vehicles they were hybrid from.

That is not meant to be an indictment as I have owned a few dozen SUVs before I found the right one for me, it is a Mercedes for those that are curious but I should mention that I did not like my first one and it took considerable effort to find one that I liked the second time around.

I ask a lot of equipment and I am very particular and discerning.
My needs may not be the same as yours, test your gear and go with what you like.

 

[JLM]

David,

Just curious, did you test any of Federal's EFMJ .40 rounds? I'd like to see those results.

I too might have to rethink the Gold Dot. Started carrying the 165 grains based on a article written by Sanow. Maybe its time to go back to the 180's, or the 180 EFMJ if it proves worthy. I too thou, am concerned about the bullet setback issue


_________________
-Justin

"The people will not understand the importance of the 2nd Amendment until
it is too late" -Thomas Jefferson

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JLM on 2001-06-20 17:58 ]</font>

 

[Clay]

IMHO, the standard, non-premium loads from Federal, Winchester, and Remington are the best performers in 9, 40, and 45. After testing many different loads in various media, and comparing my results with others, I think that the premium offerings have almost no advantages over the standard JHP loads. They are much sexier with their nickel cases and fancy shapes, and look as if they perform better, especially in gel tests. However, higher price doesn't mean higher performance.
I prefer 14-15 inches of gel penetration with my ammo, as well as a low level of flash and water resistance. Reliability and consistancy are of course number one. Accuracy really isn't too important to me, as most factory JHP loads will offer more accuracy than I can deliver in a fight.
I am testing various 180gr. loads in .40, and I will post all of my opinions/results.
I like the Gold Dot bullet, but all of the .40cal 165 and 180 grain factory loads that I've tested offer minimal penetration IMO. The Federal "Classic" 180gr load is widely available and a good performer, as are the Remington and Winchester 180gr rounds. The white box Winchester JHP loads are very inexpensive, and I plan on testing them out ASAP.
Also, it is my opinion that a person is far more likely to test fire and rotate an affordable type of ammo versus a $15 for 20rnds. box of wonder bullets.

 

[Guest]

Clay,
That is some very good insight and you are right on track with your opinion.

I believe the only "premium" bullets to offer an advantage are the Ranger T design as they add cutting as a wounding mechanism and they are very reliable.

The Hornandy XTP is another very good design but it can hardly be considered a "premium" as Hornandy ammo is inexpensive compared to the "big" makers ammo.

The Gold Dot is a very good bullet in almost all loadings and is also a load that is very economical.

I like your thought process and sound reasoning behind your choices so far and I strongly encourage all users to spend some time think for themselves and do their own testing.

 

[Clay]

Thank you David for your kind words. I never include restricted ammo such as the Winchester Ranger T in my thinking, due to it's limited availability, and in my opinion it may cause legal problems later on, if used by a cake-eatin' civilian--one more thing for an anti-gun legal system to focus on.
I hope that others will take the time to read the comments here on these threads, and think before wasting time and money on magic bullets.
I hate to think of all the time and money that I wasted searching and buying all the latest ammo, only to be underwhelmed in the results.
I've tested most of the premium brands in 9mm, and several in 40 and 45. I usually test ammo in a Fackler water box, in water soaked newsprint covered in T-shirt material, and on car bodies. Standard "non premium" loads usually show more penetration than the more expensive offerings, and reach very similar expanded diameters, close enough to be of no significant difference.
The more I learn, the more I think a high level of penetration is necessary. A year ago I was happy with 12" of gel penetration, but now I prefer around 15-16". It is unbelievable to me that people recommend a light, shallow penetrating bullet for defending oneself against a 230lb human, but recommend a heavy, deep penetrating bullet for shooting a 120lb deer. That's dumb. Deer are FAR easier to stop than a 230lb crackhead in need of a fix :grin: .
I look forward to testing several types of 40 and 45 ammo for muzzle flash this weekend.
I guess my point is, there are other things to consider when choosing ammo, such as muzzle flash, cost and availability in your area, and overall reliability.

 

[JLM]

David,

Thought I'd ask you again: did you test the Federal EFMJ's as well, and if so, what kind of results did you get? Thanks :grin:

 

[Just a GI]

Clay, I truly look forward to your test of the Winchester white box JHP's since I've recently begun shooting them in their .45 incarnation and so far from my VERY limited testing I've found them to be very accurate and relatively low flash. As you said for $15something for 50 they are a good deal.

Please share your experiences.

 

[Guest]

JLM,
I am hoping to finish my 9mm,.40S&W, and .45acp Federal EFMJ testing this weekend.
The gelatin came late this afternoon and I may not have time to get it all done yet.

 

[MichaelOrick]

IIRC, the FBIs new contract for duty ammo is the 165 Gold Dot (the new, "full power" nickel cased load). About 13/.65 bare, 16/.60 cloth from a P229 at about 1075 according to FBI test results I saw from 97.

According to Sanow in Handguns, the Win Ranger, Supreme SXT, and Fed Tactical 180s "beat" the HS, GD, and GS.

The Canadian Police Research Centre has some good old stuff (1994) on line about various 9/40 loads fired into bare gel, through heavy cloth, and pig ribs too.

bare, cloth, rib:

155 GD 13.2/.72, 13/.66, 12.8/.70
180 GD 13.4/.69, 13.5/.62, 13.3/.66

The newer GDs seem to perform about the same (the 155/40 GDs are almost the same from 93 to 97 in FBI tests for bare gel/cloth, 10.7/.84 and 17-18/.57-.58. Ditto the 180 GDs; very close), even though the profiles and jacket thickness are different.

Fired through 4 layers of denim into water jugs from my G23, the Win Supreme SXT 165/1060 and 180/985 did .69 in the 4th jug and beat the 155/165/180 HS, GD, GS, EFMJ. So did PMCs "cheap" 165 JHP at 985 and 4/.66 BTW.

 

[evanmarshall]

David;

good work!

Salt Lake Cnty and several other depts have had excellent results with HS 180gr. If I was going to carry a 180gr .40 load it would most probably be 180gr HS

 

[JLM]

Looks like the Supreme SXT might be worth looking into as well.