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505 Burns aka 505B/K

4208 Views 10 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  MR2U
First off it wasn't my idea to name a round after myself, RCBS does that for you when you come up with one unless you name it something useful. The Nyeti or 505 ASS WHOMPER were already taken :grin:

OK, the 505 Burns is a direct descendant of a 505 Gibbs and the 500 Jeffery. I was shooting a 505 Gibbs for a short while and doing a work up on load data. I realised quite quickly that the big Gibbs case was over done for what we had available in powders today.

I wanted a 50 cal sporting rifle. The limitation was I wanted to use the biggest case I could easily get to run through a "normal" action. The 416 Rigby seemed the way to go. The most popular 50cal sporting bullets are 510 for the Jeffery and 500 Nitro. Not enough shoulder IMO to use them with a bolt gun and a blown out 416 case but that extra .05 is enough for the .505 cal bullets of the Gibbs in the same Rigby case. I first used the 450 Dakota case because it is the easiest to load. (a wild cat Dakota not based exactly on the Rigby, beng slightly smaller. No fire forming. Load them up on the RCBS/Burns die set and go shoot them :grin: They head space just fine and shoot incredible!

The original guns were built on the CZ550 in 416 Rigby. It is a reasonable conversion. As it happens though the new 505 Burns round fits easily, fully loaded with the Woodleigh 600 gr bullets in the magnum size, new Classic, Model 70s from Winchester. We had Ted Blackburn design and build us bottom metal to hold four plus one. Now that is a conversion!

But we (Mike Kizler and I) have also designed and built production stocks and triggers for the CZ that will be available very soon for the magnum action in all calibers.
Easy enough to do, 375 bolt throw and good guns and bottom metal available. That is the combo for a real winner.

The case is incredibly effecient for powder, stack, and burn rate. Bullets available are 525 softs and solids and 600 gr softs, all from Woodleigh. There are other 505 bullets available but these have a great track record.

The 525s will do 2350 from a 21" barrel with 45K and the 600gr will do 2200fps from the same barrel with a bit less than 44K.

I have not chrono'ed the longer barrels yet.

But so far the thing beats the 500 Jeffries or certainly the 505 Gibbs, hands down in recoil and being effecient on the powder burn compared to velocity attained.

This was the second one delivered. Like always mine is coming :grin: Not sure why I am smiling though!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-11-05 23:05 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Loron on 2001-11-06 15:17 ]</font>
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That's a beautifull piece of wood there, and there metal work is very nice for a Winchester :grin: Mike
That one is a CZ believe it or not! Lot less to REDO on a Winchester :grin:

I'll post a few pictures of the 505 cartridge for comparison this evening.
Hi Dane, I had second thoughts about it being a "Winchester" after I posted the last note. Guess I need the monitor or my byfocals adjusted .... :grin: Mike (edit) Post with my favorite Rem. 416 Mag. round if you can for comparison! Thanks


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Randall_1611 on 2001-11-05 23:34 ]</font>
First off it wasn't my idea to name a round after myself...

-Dane Burns

Nooooo, that was MY idea. :smile:

Damn DD, you're right I had forgotten. Only seen the name on the dies so it seemed a reasonable assumption as I typed today :roll:

It has been a long project getting these guns up and running. My eyes and memory have faded since I started it. Either that or it is the brain damage from shooting the darn things :grin:

From left to right.
600 Nitro/577 Nitro/505 Gibbs/505 Burns/ 458 Winchester Mag/ 416 Rigby/ 416 Reminton/ 416 Taylor/ 30-06/ 45 ACP ball/ 600 gr 505 Woodleigh Soft. Kinda puts "big bore" handgun into perspective doesn't it. (I aim to please here :smile: Now while the 416 Remington is a very nice round, and one of my favorite, this should give you an idea of what more you can have!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-11-06 00:57 ]</font>
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You are a sick, sick man. :grin:
And you say this kicks LESS than a .416 Rigby? How is that possible, in rifles of equal weight?!?

Recoil is a part powder burnt (gas and pressure) and part bullet weight and part velocity with rifle weight thrown in the mix. That is the simpole calulation anyway :smile:

I find the huge 416 rigby case with a 400 grain, 416 cal bullet going 2400 fairly unpleasant. The same exact bullet, rifle and velocity in a 416 Remington case kicks a good deal less by all accounts including my own. A 500 grain 458 Win mag doing 2100 kicks even less than either and a 416 Taylor 400gr bullet going 2300fps is a pussy cat. I used the same rifle, and action to make the comparison for myself on both 416 Rem and Taylor and the 458. The 416 Rigby, 505 Gibbs and 505 Burns were a different set of rifles with the same weights and stocks.

Bottom line? Open the bore up, all else being equal, and pressure goes down. Lower pressure and velocity and recoil goes down.

The 505 Burns is a unique set of values much like the 9x23 pistol cartridge I suspect. It is very effecient and has an exceptional burn and powder ratio for bore size.

It was pure luck.

In the 550 Burns case we have upped bullet weight over the Rigby by 115grs (410 to 525) but dropped velocity and made the burn more effecient with a better powder stack.

Same rifle, the feel I get ( of course this is subjective) is less recoil at 525 doing 2275fps to 2300fps. (which I believe will solve any problem I have with out going up to 2400) over the .416 cal. 410 gr bullet going 2400 in a Rigby.

I can't get my Barnes balastic program up right now or I would give you a rough comparison in ft. lbs. from their recoil calculations. But it's not jave, the 505 is easier to shoot IMO. Now take that little "pill" on the far right in the image above, the Woodleigh 600gr. Soft and launch it at 2200fps and you know you have pulled a trigger on a rifle :grin: There are guys who like to shoot that same bullet at 2400 to 2500 fps from the Gibbs. I AINT one of them.

I am not recoil shy but like the 1911 there are limits to what I can shoot and control at a level I demand. With the 9x23, hot loads up to 147 gr bullets doing 1400fps I can handle. In 45 230 @ 900 is enough or 200s @ 1100 is fine (and my favorite BTW).
I find the 200 grain 100 loads doing 1200 very unpleasant to shoot let alone difficult to control.

In rifles, I find a 338 childs play in 100 rd firing sessions. The 416 Taylor/458 Win Mag a comforatble gun shooting 50 per session. 416 Remingtomn I have to concentrate on. 416 Rigby I have to work at. The 505 Burns I work at with 525s. But I would rather shoot it than the 416 Rigby over a course of 20 to 40 rounds. It just doesn't hit the shooter back as hard. The 600 grain bullets I do 10 at a time...they can give you a flinch if you are not careful and I "season" my shoulder before I just bang a few away....good thing at $5.00 a shot!
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Your 20ga is probably a slightly lighter gun. If all things, other than gauge, were equal I would doubt you would feel the difference.

AA, unique, WW wad, W209 primer, 1 oz #8 shot, sure makes a nice clay target load.
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