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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all!

Like the saying goes, those who are looking for advice are only looking for an accomplice.

So here it is, I have some spare/liquid dinero that I'm coming into and I am considering a custom/customized 1911 (that or a .50BMG, big difference I know, but I got that urge too) and I was looking for input on what I should get/look for.

The pistol itself will only used for concealed carry and blasting anything at the range I want (when the range master ain't around :grin:) to blast. I have a my share of 10mms and .45acps, but only ONE lowly .38S/9x23 (an EAA Witness that Dane tells me ain't strong enough to handle prolonged use of the 9x23 :sad:) so that was the caliber I was considering, after that a set of night sites (bar dots are the fastest sites IMNSHO), one of those beavertail safeties. . . after that, I dunno.

What should I get? I see all of the BEAUTIFUL pistolas from Dane (and the like) with all their Buck Roger doodads and now I'm JEALOUS that I don't have one of those! :wink:

I am an avid Para fan (no flames or snide remarks! :wink:) and their "standard" 1911 has always worked fine for me, that's the honest truth. I have never really updgraded them to anything really customized. Hence THE itch!

Should I have it completely built from scratch? Should I have a base pistol, from either Springfield or Kimber, tweaked out?

Any further advice, from the accomplices :grin:, is appreciated!

Derek
 

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My suggestion would be to get a good basic gun, figure out what you want and don't want out of it and then have a no-kidding top 1% gunsmith do it all. I've found that gunsmiths charge about the same for equivalent work, so you might as well send it off to one of the top-flight guys so you have as close to zero worries as possible.

One idea I had was what I'd call the "Stealth Bomber." Basically, you take the plainest, ugliest pistol possible (e.g. a parkerized Colt 1991A1) and give it uber-functionality without changing the stock appearance. So...

1. Trigger job with stock trigger pad & spur hammer. Bob the hammer to prevent bite if necessary.
2. Alter stock sights for better function (e.g. open up rear sight if necessary & make front sight more visible or add tritium insert), or use relatively stock-looking aftermarket sights. Novaks and Heinies will give you away... :grin:
3. Fit a Bar-Sto barrel.
4. Make completely reliable.

I like stainless better in general, but I think it looks too good for this use. Go parkerized and maybe INTENTIONALLY make it uglier for good measure. Plastic grips, triggers and MSH only add to the "appeal." If you are really devious grind off the original rollmarks and replace them with "Charles Daly." :grin: :grin: :grin:

"What's that?" "Oh, just my crappy old mil-spec..." BOOM BOOM BOOM. "Lookit that, there's only one hole. Must be my lucky day." :eek:
 

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The "PUSHER MAN" sez, "how about a Colt Series 70?" :grin:



Vedecki trigger, BarSto, hard ball sights, .125" x 1.25" rear notch, .190"x .125" front, tool steel hammer, sear and disconnector.
 

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Brown 'High Sweep' Grip Safety (contoured)
Brown Wide Thumb Safety (right-hand only, trimmed down)
Burns Hammer, Sear, and Disconnector
Caspian AFTEC Extractor
EGW Extra Long Ejector
Heinie Sights (white-ring Trijicon inserts)
Kart Barrel
MGW 4140 Oversize Bushing
Rock River/Caspian Bartstock Frame & Slide
Videki Aluminium Short Trigger (no holes)

Blued or Hard Chrome, serrations front & back, and rear & top of slide. An EGW slide-release, if one can be had with serrations instead of checkering.

Other action options: an STI hammer, EGW sear, and Briley disconnector, or a full T. Jacobson set.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: telackey on 2001-07-10 15:19 ]</font>
 

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On 2001-07-10 15:33, j.w. kerens wrote:
I'm just a hick from the mountains of Utah, but why put a match barrel into a gun that's going to be used for protection? Why not spend the money for practice ammo instead?
...the better to "HIT" you with, my man...
 

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>>I'm just a hick from the mountains of Utah, but why put a match barrel into a gun that's going to be used for protection? Why not spend the money for practice ammo instead?<<
-------------------------------------------------------

LOL!
....and I'm just a hick from the mountains of Colorado and I've often wondered the same thing.

It's probably because so many gunslingers don't have the foggiest notion of the dynamics of a firefight. The target is not a target, if you know what I mean. There's a certain "something" about a moving target that actually shoots back at ya:)

For defense, just give me a very reliable 1911 .45 with a proper spec'd barrel, crowned and a comparatively tight bushing fit....then with lots of defensive shooting practice, you might get lucky in a bad situation.
 

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but why put a match barrel into a gun that's going to be used for protection?
Guess that depends on the scenarios you envision for self protection. Ask the FBI guys at Miami or LAPD during the N.H. heist. It's is never a bad thing to have the most accurate gun possible in your hands. BTW a stock Beretta is damn accurate out of the box.

Whelen said, "only accurate guns are interesting". I agree. Most Kimbers and the newest Springfields will out shoot their owners. That wasn't true on the series 70's Colts at one time. I want to make sure the gun will out shoot me everytime.

Why not spend the money for practice ammo instead?
Say $300 worth of ammo or a match barrel? I'd take the barrel and keep practicing for the money and ammo you get for $300. You can always grow into the barrel and you're not likly to wear it out. Practice is a never ending thing and isn't cheap either..

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-07-11 01:54 ]</font>
 

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Guy at the range once asked the same question regarding why I had Krieger's on my rifles, when he had never had any problems with factory barrels...said it must be a rich guy thing. :smile: Rather than debate him, I just said "uh huh".

I don't smoke, seldom drink, don't pay interest in order to buy something I can't afford to buy outright, and I save my nickels. Do better barrels make better guns? In the long term yes. If the plan is to seldom shoot the gun and trade it off in a year or two, probably a waste of money.

I am not a gunslinger, never claimed to be. Not a student of fight dynamics either, but I put in my road work, lift, stretch, eat right and train...for the fight that will hopefully never come. Could be considered a waste of time, I guess, but my time to waste, no?
 

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Finally! Something to debate since I joined this forum.

Dane, I don't know you but I respect your work. Someday, I may have you do a gun for me. But . . . .

I don't see how a match barrel would have helped either the FBI or LAPD in those situations. As I recall, the FBI gig was solved by Agent Morales with a 5-shot Chief's Special. In the LAPD deal, a rifle was called for.

I've only been in one gunfight, but the last thing on my mind was match accuracy.

Gyp c2, I know most folks shoot better than I do, but "...the better to hit you with ..."? Most handgun battles are at close range and are over very quickly. As Chuck Taylor said in his handgun book, if your handgun will put a shot into a man's chest at 75 meters, you'll have more accuracy than you'll ever need.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Dane--that pistol would be great, if it was a 9x23! :grin: Oh yeah, night sights and hard chromed too!

As for this discussion about match barrel this and Chuck Taylor being able to put shots in a man's chest at 75 meters that, I think I'd be better served getting a 50 BMG with a match barrel! :wink:

Derek
 

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I like any gun I carry to be able to hit head shots at 25 yards with ease.

it is much easier to do with a gun that will shoot 1 inch groups from a ransom rest then with a gun that shoots 4 inch groups from a rest.

I think a match barrel is worth the $200 -$300.
jusy my $0.02

shay
 

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Hello!
Do you doubt that aftermarket barrels assist some of us in attaining greater accuracy? Surely no...
...So...what are we really after here? Debate!
Goodo...I can't see 75yds...but I can tell if my accuracy has been affected at 25ft...wouldn't that fall into a "useful" improvement in accuracy? Hmmmm?
 

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BTW...I have no problem with the question you're posing and surely most barrels are capable of the accuracy we need to engage in a fight...but if someone feels the need for a better barrel, and they do indeed have it installed properly, isn't the confidence it buys them worth something? I have no doubt that an extra 3000 rds would help "most" more than the simple addition of a barrel...But...If they recognize the need for the barrel, might it not follow that they have already done the practice time required to make up their own mind about what "they" need?
...I could always use another 3000 rds downrange...I wouldn't mind havin' another barrel either...

...just a thought... :wink:
 

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Unless you carry your tricked-out, 1/4" MOA, Leupold equipped sniper rifle on a sling with you at all times, chances are that your handgun will be what you need to depend on to save your butt.

Why do we need a 1/4" MOA rifle that could do the job just as well with a group 4 times that big? Why? - because precision is sometimes needed to end violent encounters.

I want my handgun to be the most accurate it can be, because my sniper rifle is a pain in the butt to lug around all day, and I still may need to "poke" someone's eye out at 20 yds.

Think of why you wouldn't question putting a match grade barrel on a rifle. The same reasons apply to a pistol, only at shorter ranges.
 

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Dane, I don't know you but I respect your work. Someday, I may have you do a gun for me. But . . . .
Thanks :grin: back to the debate now!


In the LAPD deal, a rifle was called for.
I will suggest that the NH shoot out could have been dealt with (and was finally) with a head shot of better yet a shot to the feet with a good hand gun, and a shooter capable of making the shot.

As Chuck Taylor said in his handgun book, if your handgun will put a shot into a man's chest at 75 meters, you'll have more accuracy than you'll ever need.
I'll disagree with that. If the gun won't shoot into 4" at 75 yards it isn't much of a gun IMO. [/quote]
 
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I would have to agree with Dane as the NH shootout was actually ended by one suspect placing his M92 to his head and shooting himself after taking a round to the neck from an LAPD officer's 9mm handgun and the second man was disabbled long enough to be taken down by "bouncing" rounds under the car into his unprotected legs and groin, certainly a task that a handgun would suffice for. The much overstated use of the loaner rifles actually had nothing to do with the cessation of hostile actions by the two suspects.

4" @ 75 yards will not bring home the game animal you are shooting at, and certainly offers little room for error when a head, knee, or neck shot is necessary @ 25 yards.

Also, I believe it was a snub K frame not a J frame that was used to end the FBI shootout.

_________________
Think, Plan, Train, Be Safe.
Thanks
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-07-11 13:10 ]</font>
 

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I think the gun used to fire the final shots in the FBI shoot-out was a SW 686. It had an orange front sight insert if I remember correctly. I only say that because the agent who was firing it says that is his strongest memory of the gunfight, that orange front sight as he stumbled forward towards the fugitives car. FBI guns involved were (I believe) a pair of SW 469's that two FBI swat guys had, a pair of SW snub nose model 19's, an SW 686 and a few shotguns. Bad guys had a mini-14, a shotgun I think, and some pistols. There is a very good write up on this in the book "The Ayoob Files", it has diagrams and medical analysis as well as a tactical review of lessons learned.

As far as match barrels go there are two opposing arguements here and I am hard pressed to argue with either one of them.

The first is that a match barrel in a defensive gun is a waste of money for a target that will be moving and shooting back in a probable low-light environment which is filled with stress and loud noise.

The second arguement is that you better have a match barrel in the gun because it is going to be real hard to hit what you're aiming at under those conditions and you need all the help you can get and as few liabilities as you can arrange.

I think it comes down to reliability more than anything. I like a match barrel in a 1911 that has been set up with that particular barrel in mind. For me though, installing a match barrel on a defensive sig or glock is just plain silly. There isn't a whole bunch of logic to that statement but it just feels right for me. BUT, that is the only person it has to feel right to. I am not trying to talk anyone out of anything. If you want to have a 3K$ 1911 built with a norinco barrel in it - more power to you. If you want to take a glock 30 and put a 300 dollar match barrel in it - by all means do it! My only problem is one that I am guilty of, which is spending a whole ton of money for the coolest looking gun in your zip code and not shooting it or getting training because you can't afford it after all your money went to the tritium equipped electric dog polisher that you saw on a tactical magazine cover. I'm getting over that now by the way, I just still have a whole bunch of learning to do. I just can't imagine looking at a bad guy and telling myself, "Oh shit, that guy has a customized 70-series colt with a reliability job and heinie night sights....". I can see myself thinking, "Oh shit, that person looks like they really would be willing to kill me for the 11 bucks in my wallet and they have some kind of weapon that they could use to do it...". I want the best gun I can afford, but that is exactly like having the best golf clubs to me. Good clubs don't make a person a good golf player, training does. A highly trained person can make use of better clubs,but even with junk clubs they can beat the pants of me because I just plain don't know what I'm doing on a golf course. No amount of clubs or hats or shoes or naked lady tees is going to help me until I understand how to use them. Still, there is the hope that I will grow into the equipment as I learn more. Long post, sorry, I was feeling conversational...
Jake
 
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