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acquired a TZ-75 with problems

6K views 7 replies 6 participants last post by  TBAUS 
#1 ·
Thank you for your forum :)

I recently acquired an EAA Witness (manufactured by Tangfolio in the early '90s) with both the 9mm and .40 S&W slides.

This is a nice pistol, but:

The 9mm slide shoots 6+ inches low at 15 and 25 yards with 115, 124 and 147 grain factory loads.

The .40 S&W slide shoots 4+ inches low at 15 and 25 yards with 165, 175 and 180 grain factory loads.

The extractor of the.40 S&W slide was badly peened and deformed from (as I analyze it) hopping over the rim.

My best thought was adjustable sights (MECGAR) to repair the printing problem, but for the life of me, I can't seem move the stock rear sight. Measurement indicates that the rear-sight dovetail has a left to right taper (left edge is larger, right edge narrower.) I have tried standard drifiting ... no luck. I have used my sight pusher and after applying significant force, I stopped to get more information. I have used Kroil on the dovetails.

Are the stock rear sights on Tangfolio slides tapered and if so, how? Does anyone know the measurements of ths dovetail? I'll be more than happy to supply the measurements if I can ever get the things off :)

A quick calculation idicates that I would have to remove some 7/32 of an inch (.21875) from the front sight to regulate the sights and 'eyeballing' at the range confirms that almost 45% of the front sight height needs to be removed. if I can't install an alternate rear sight, does this sound reasonable?

Note that EAA has indicated that they won't be of any help or answer any questions.

Regarding the extractor: I ordered and installed a new one and the part # for the 9mm and .40S&W extractor are the same. After installation, testing shows that the next cartridge fails to slide under the extractor about 20% of the time under nominal conditions and 100% of the time if the next cartridge is pushed slighty forward in the magazine.

Is contouring the extractor hook normally necessary for the .40 S&W cartridge? I've done it many times, but my concern is that there is another problem disguised as a misadjusted extractor.

Love the pistol :) I mainly shoot .45 ACP and have a CZ 97 ( a real CZ.) I acquired the Witness quite comfortably and I don't mind spending time to make it work well.


Thank you,

Tousignant
Plano, Texas
 
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#2 ·
tous said:
Thank you for your forum :)

IRegarding the extractor: I ordered and installed a new one and the part # for the 9mm and .40S&W extractor are the same. Plano, Texas
Strange. I have never heard of a 9mm and .40SW extractor being the same. They sure are different on a 1911 and the shape and depth of the hook tip can not be the same to work properly.


tous said:
Thank you for your forum :)

The 9mm slide shoots 6+ inches low at 15 and 25 yards with 115, 124 and 147 grain factory loads.

The .40 S&W slide shoots 4+ inches low at 15 and 25 yards with 165, 175 and 180 grain factory loads.

Plano, Texas
Both slide/barrel sets shooting that low makes me wonder if there is something funny about the fit in the frame of the cross pin? Seems odd they would both shoot the same.

tous said:
Thank you for your forum :)

Is contouring the extractor hook normally necessary for the .40 S&W cartridge? I've done it many times, but my concern is that there is another problem disguised as a misadjusted extractor.
Plano, Texas
Not if they are made correctly. But, you said they are selling the same 9mm extractor for the .40? That might require some fitting because it sounds like they are not making a true .40 extractor and you are making one from the 9mm extractor? I don't see why an extractor should need fitting.
 
#3 ·
Tanfolio seems to run counter to the industry standard in rear dovetails, in that the taper seems to be left to right, instead of the standard right to left.

My older stainless EAA .45 is fitted so tight, the sight has deep grooves cut into the sight from the sharp edges of the slides dovetail.
Needless to say, the sight doesn't want to move.

Some things to look into:
First, look at the sight to try to determine just which way it was originally installed.

Next, try to determine if "Billy Bob" may have given it a shot of LocTite or epoxy.

Last, get the slide into a really well braced position on a SOLID no-bounce bench, and attempt to move the sight with a LARGE brass drift and a heavy hammer. Often, the problem with tight sights is the slide is bouncing when struck.
I use a piece of 1"x1/2"x6" brass bar stock, notched on one end to clear the slide.

Then too, some sights just won't move. Kahr pistols have a reputation of being gunsmith's horror stories even with professional sight equipment. I've talked to several 'smith's who had to CUT the sights out of the dovetail.

My best advice is to get a good setup, and use the heavy punch and hammer.

On your extractor problem, I'd check the magazine spring and the recoil spring. It's possible the mag spring is bad and not holding the round up properly, or a replacement recoil spring may be causing the problem.
Also check the magazine lips for alteration, or bending.

Usually, a bad mag (mag, or spring) allows the round to "pop" out of the magazine early. Instead of sliding up under the extractor, it pops up in front of the extractor, and this sounds like your problem.
The problem can also be caused by a improper recoil spring. Too strong, and the round is hit with enough force to actually drive it out of the mag ahead of the breech-face.

Too weak, (grossly) and the slide can hit the stop shoulder hard enough to jar the round out of the mag during recoil. This situation is very rare, and is usually obvious.

I'd try a new magazine, one that Billy Bob didn't have his hands on. I've seen a number of problems that were mag related, but since ALL the available mags were defective, it was hard to diagnose. Usually if some clown alters a mag, they alter them all.

Since this is a used gun, God only knows what somebody may have altered. Suspect EVERYTHING.
 
#4 ·
dfariswheel, bountyhunter, thank you for your attention :)

I checked with EAA twice about the proper extractor for the .40 S&W Witness. I fully understand that they are the importer, not the manufacturer and they confirmed that the extractor is the same for both 9mm and .40 S&W. Brownells no longer sells EAA parts, but checking some older catalogues again shows the part #s are the same.

bountyhunter, you are quite right to suggest another problem may be lurking. I have hi-cap mags for the 9mm (black follower) and the .40 S&W (orange follower), some are Tangfolio parts, others I suspect were gun show specials and upon close inspection it appears that all they do is spread the feed lips a bit on a 9mm mag to accomodate the .40 S&W (and the .41 AE.)

In testing the .40 S&W version (firing with my thumb under the slide lock, something quite easy to do as I have long thumbs :) ) inspection of the next cartridge to be loaded consistently shows that round tends to jump forward in the magazine. This is not the case with the 9mm magazine.
So, I concluded that both the extractor and magazines are contributing to the failure, but that the extractor is the easiest part to adjust to fix it. The extractor has plenty of 'meat' around the hook so some contouring shouldn't weaken it. Does that seem reasonable?

Regarding the abysmal printing, the front sights (cast into the slide) on both slides are quite high (.256 in) above the top of the slide on both slides. I suspect the .40 S&W slide, even though it is rolled marked '40 S&W' is identical to the 9mm slide on this model. Careful measurement should confirm or deny that. If I look at other pistols with approximately the same sight radius the front sight is not nearly so tall.

dfariswheel, I suspect the rear sight on the EAA Witness is sweated on, i.e., they cool one part, heat the other and when both return to ambience they may as well have been welded on. What I generally do (I hate to harm the orginal part) is to put the thing in a drill press and drill a 7/64, 1/8 " hole along the bottom of the dovetail, giving the dovetail some empty space to compress into. This is a long and tedious process and a smaller drill bit will just deflect too much, but it does work and harms the OEM part as little as possible.
My question is, why such a tight fit? I have many other pistols with dovetailed sights taht can be drifted fairly easily and I have never had them move on me. I guess this falls into the 'I wouldn't have done it that way' box on my bench :)

I am one of those folk who just hate when things don't work right and tend to need to make it so. :) Rather than applying force by hammer, I'm seriously thinking hydraulic press.

Overall, I like the pistol. I have small (read 'girly') hands and the TZ-75 fits quite well. One problem, as mentioned before, I have long thumbs and they tend to interfere with the slide relase if I'm not careful and I have noticed a tendency to inadvertently apply the safety with my right thumb if I don't I keep my right thumb on top of the safety.

I thank you both for your advice and shall let you know how it all works out. :D
 
#5 ·
9mm and .40 cal

I have a Witness, but its a .45 (and several CZs..)

It was my understanding -- perhaps wrong -- that Witness (Tanfoglio) unlike most guns, uses the same slide with both the 9mm and .40. As it was explained to me, the 9mm barrel is made thicker (bigger diameter) to fit the .40 slide.

Perhaps this is only with newer guns.

That said, I've talked with a number of guys who shoot Witnesses in IPSC, and they say they have two barrels, not two top ends. They claim that Witness/Tanfoglio designed them to use the same mags and extractors, too. (I know this can be done, as Bar-Sto does it for some of their .357 SIG/40 to 9mm conversion barrels for the .40 line of SIGs.)

It doesn't surprise me that they use the same extractor. It does surprise me that you've got different slides. Have you checked to see if the slides and barrels aren't interchangeable? I wonder if you got the remnants of somebody's TWO GUN collection...
 
#6 ·
Walt,

Doing some research in old 'Shooter's Bibles' shows that EAA imported the Witness with optional 9mm, .40 S&W and .41 AE top ends for the medium frame, .45 ACP and 10mm top ends for the large frame.

I measured the slides and aside from different sight heights, the 9mm and .40 S&W slides appear to be identical. I haven't tested the recoil springs, but I would think they'd be different as well.

As mentioned, I think the extractor wear problem is more of a magazine problem. The Tangfolio .40 S&W magazine has a tendency to allow the next round to be fed to get shoved forward so the extractor misses the groove. I intend to try new magazines springs to see if that helps.
 
#7 ·
I wonder if a real CZ extractor would fit or have enough metal to be made to fit? If so, I only paid CZ USA $13 for mine, TZs are $17.56 wholesale at Brownells. But it's still the cheaper part to work on.

How about a shim epoxied or soldered into the front of the magazine body? Comparable to the new Springfield/Metalform/Leatham 9mm 1911 "front ramp" magazine that spaces the round to the rear of the magazine instead of the Colt design with spacer in the back wall to hold the round forward.

My CZ had a tall rear sight and a low front sight, due to slide shape and barrel lockup. My FLG put on a front sight to suit me from a Novak blank, then slotted the factory rear crossways and soldered in a piece of flat stock which he cut to height and notched for a high profile rear.
 
#8 ·
.

Hopefully you have solved the problem by now. EAA small frame Witness' ( 9mm / .40S&W) both use the same extractor as EAA told you. Your problem does sound mag related. Usually no shaping of the extractor is needed. Quite often the bolt face needs to be polished smooth to allow the cartridge to smoothly slide up it's face. Some shooters have complained about black mag followers having problems, but I have not experienced any problems with them. To me the problem sounds like the magazine spring, or follower, or the lips being bent too wide open. The rear sights are a real pain to remove. You need a really firm bench ( padded vise would be nice) and a brass punch. EAA slides them into the dovetail with a lot of force. I have seen a couple that used such force a little sliver of the sight metal was shaved off. EAA does sell a taller rear fixed sight. Check the position of the barrel in the molded in front barrel bushing at lockup. I have seen two guns that locked up with the barrel canted downward a bit. If this is the case, go to the CZ Forum and then the Clone section and look up a write up on one fix for this issue. ( of course a taller rear sight or a LPA sight is a fix as well) Good shooting
 
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