I have a question for you all, especially gunsmiths. Are production guns that are highly customized, an example would be a basic Springfield Loaded w/ Burns' Ultimate Carry package, be just as good or maybe better than a custom built gun from the ground up? Also, would I be wasting my time customizing my Springfield rather than getting a custom built gun?
Custom vs. Custom-Production
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It is my opinion that most shooters, except for those that are SERIOUS competitors, are best served by buying a stock gun and investing in a good trigger job and reliability work IF NECESSARY.
I am not on the IPSC tour but I shoot my guns set up as descriped against the more expensive psuedo customs and the fancy race guns. I know most of the shooting is in the shooter and I haven't seen proof that an extra $1K to $4K is worth it for MOST people.
Spend the extra money on ammo and entry fees.
I am not on the IPSC tour but I shoot my guns set up as descriped against the more expensive psuedo customs and the fancy race guns. I know most of the shooting is in the shooter and I haven't seen proof that an extra $1K to $4K is worth it for MOST people.
Spend the extra money on ammo and entry fees.
Bufford,
Hi, mark here from NC. I would look at the intended use of the pistol and, the resources available. Any number of good smiths will want to talk to their customer and try to clarify what the needs of the customer are (competition, concealed carry, paper punching). The good smiths will not over sell stuff that you don't need unless you absolutely insist and can articulate why.
I will say that a production gun can not match the quality and attention to detail that a true custom guns delivers. A production gun can be made to be completely reliable and a fine fighting handgun. You can even add a few bells and whistles. A custom gun will give you everything you want as interpted by the smith you choose.
Just my perspective.
mark
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sicilydz on 2001-04-03 22:43 ]</font>
Hi, mark here from NC. I would look at the intended use of the pistol and, the resources available. Any number of good smiths will want to talk to their customer and try to clarify what the needs of the customer are (competition, concealed carry, paper punching). The good smiths will not over sell stuff that you don't need unless you absolutely insist and can articulate why.
I will say that a production gun can not match the quality and attention to detail that a true custom guns delivers. A production gun can be made to be completely reliable and a fine fighting handgun. You can even add a few bells and whistles. A custom gun will give you everything you want as interpted by the smith you choose.
Just my perspective.
mark
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: sicilydz on 2001-04-03 22:43 ]</font>
Thanks James and Mark for the replies. Right now, Im in the process of saving up for my next big purchases. I can definitely put down the $200 for a Rock River, but the full house custom may have to wait. Terry and Dane are in the process of finalizing the BCP Kimber lineup, so I may get that instead. As far as use of the guns, primarily for target or competition. For personal defense, it will be my Springfield or a Colt Combat Commander. Funding a new hobbie has certainly taken its toll on my bank account.
For a defense gun, you don't have to build from the ground up and still have a great pistol. However, there's nothing like having one built from the ground, to your specs. Of course, I'm just guessing (dreaming?) as all my 1911s are production pieces with work done by smiths.
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185 Posts
As one who sells, shoots and get to listen to all of the complaints from working retail I can say the following from a buyer, user, and retailer's perspective.
If you are unsure of what you want get a basic package Springfield or Kimber.
Not the custom from either production 1911 line.
The basic package. From that you have a mark or an idea to find out what you want. Then either trade the basic package or sell it to fund the higher end gun.
There is no perfect gun. Remember that.
I just bought a Springfield Loaded 1911 Stainless full size 9mm. For the money the gun is worth every cent. It is a good value, but it is no custom, semi-custom or what ever you want to call it.
I am totally spoiled rotten by the custom guns that have passed through my retail operation. I can see mill marks, loose fitting, plastic mainspring housing and triggers, burrs and a host of other cost cutting errors.
Do your research but you get exactly what you pay for front end or back end. You will hear that again.
I shoot a Wilson Combat 1996A2 that is a dream in comparison (lowest cost Wilson). I also have a full size Wilson CQB that will fire anything and in any position you try it. I took a couple of buckets of magazines loaded with all of the 1/2 trade boxes of ammo and plenty of my super dirty junk reloads to test the gun. (weak hand, strong hand, one hand, side ways, upside down). Gun ran like a charm with out cleaning either.
The feel, and notice the word feel, is so much different in a production gun and a custom or hand built gun.
I fully think the one man shop is the way to go but remember the time frame, credibility of the shop, will it be there tomorrow, the reputation of the builder, The one man shop is the way to get exactly what you want. I have had three very costly disasters with the one man shops. I have had two pure pleasures with two other small shops. So choose wisely. Notice my tag line about do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end.
Many folks will say you pay for a name. Well the name is earned for some reason. A good gunsmith or gun shop does not earn a reputation and a following by selling garbage and $#!+ service. Keep this in mind. Check with owners of the guns built by the smith or the shop. If there are complaints be sure to seperate the whining from an actual gun problem. Working retail from the seller's point of view well over 95% of the complaints are actually user problems and not gun problems.
Small example: I have had folks forget to peel the red/orange warning label off of the Ruger pistol magazine and wonder why the gun jammed. DUH. Yes, this kind of user error is much more common the one realizes and also happens with the custom gun as many buyer will believe the gun makes up for operator headspace and timing error. No buyer wants to admit the buyer goofed, it is a matter or pride I guess.
I retail the Wilson Combat and they are an excellent value. I use the word value as best price more often than not gets you what you pay for. I retail the Ed Brown line and those are great also.
I also am working a deal with Dane Burns on several other projects.
All of the above earned their reputation from something all of them did.
Can there be an occasional goof. Of course, we all have a bad day but how the gun problem is dealt with is key.
Sorry to ramble but I have a tendency to do that.
If you are unsure of what you want get a basic package Springfield or Kimber.
Not the custom from either production 1911 line.
The basic package. From that you have a mark or an idea to find out what you want. Then either trade the basic package or sell it to fund the higher end gun.
There is no perfect gun. Remember that.
I just bought a Springfield Loaded 1911 Stainless full size 9mm. For the money the gun is worth every cent. It is a good value, but it is no custom, semi-custom or what ever you want to call it.
I am totally spoiled rotten by the custom guns that have passed through my retail operation. I can see mill marks, loose fitting, plastic mainspring housing and triggers, burrs and a host of other cost cutting errors.
Do your research but you get exactly what you pay for front end or back end. You will hear that again.
I shoot a Wilson Combat 1996A2 that is a dream in comparison (lowest cost Wilson). I also have a full size Wilson CQB that will fire anything and in any position you try it. I took a couple of buckets of magazines loaded with all of the 1/2 trade boxes of ammo and plenty of my super dirty junk reloads to test the gun. (weak hand, strong hand, one hand, side ways, upside down). Gun ran like a charm with out cleaning either.
The feel, and notice the word feel, is so much different in a production gun and a custom or hand built gun.
I fully think the one man shop is the way to go but remember the time frame, credibility of the shop, will it be there tomorrow, the reputation of the builder, The one man shop is the way to get exactly what you want. I have had three very costly disasters with the one man shops. I have had two pure pleasures with two other small shops. So choose wisely. Notice my tag line about do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end.
Many folks will say you pay for a name. Well the name is earned for some reason. A good gunsmith or gun shop does not earn a reputation and a following by selling garbage and $#!+ service. Keep this in mind. Check with owners of the guns built by the smith or the shop. If there are complaints be sure to seperate the whining from an actual gun problem. Working retail from the seller's point of view well over 95% of the complaints are actually user problems and not gun problems.
Small example: I have had folks forget to peel the red/orange warning label off of the Ruger pistol magazine and wonder why the gun jammed. DUH. Yes, this kind of user error is much more common the one realizes and also happens with the custom gun as many buyer will believe the gun makes up for operator headspace and timing error. No buyer wants to admit the buyer goofed, it is a matter or pride I guess.
I retail the Wilson Combat and they are an excellent value. I use the word value as best price more often than not gets you what you pay for. I retail the Ed Brown line and those are great also.
I also am working a deal with Dane Burns on several other projects.
All of the above earned their reputation from something all of them did.
Can there be an occasional goof. Of course, we all have a bad day but how the gun problem is dealt with is key.
Sorry to ramble but I have a tendency to do that.
Joined
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112 Posts
Terry,
Wise words, as always. I'd expect nothing less.
Since I cannot think of any way to add to or improve upon anything you've already said, I trust you won't object if I transition to a related topic of growing interest: the P&T BCP project.
I understand that this may be all-but-unanswerable at the moment, but is the proposed P&T/BCP gun intended to conform to a set specification, or will a certain degree of client-directed customization be accommodated? More to the point -- is it premature to inquire about a waiting list?
Chuck
Another incognito Rucker Alumnus.
Wise words, as always. I'd expect nothing less.
Since I cannot think of any way to add to or improve upon anything you've already said, I trust you won't object if I transition to a related topic of growing interest: the P&T BCP project.
I understand that this may be all-but-unanswerable at the moment, but is the proposed P&T/BCP gun intended to conform to a set specification, or will a certain degree of client-directed customization be accommodated? More to the point -- is it premature to inquire about a waiting list?
Chuck
Another incognito Rucker Alumnus.
Joined
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112 Posts
Duh. I just had a BFO (Blinding Flash of the Obvious). Looks like Terry answered most of my questions a couple of hours ago on the BCP 1911 in GUNS magazine post.
Here's a quick link over there: http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.ph ... forum=4&12
Chuck
Here's a quick link over there: http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.ph ... forum=4&12
Chuck
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