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Discussion Starter #1
While there is not enough space for a real treatise on the subject, I thought I would throw this out for those who tend to look at the "street success" of a cartridge as a factor in ammunition selection.

Never mind that the information we get from the street must be "deduced" to be of use, because, other than those shootings caught on video, we have no one available with a stop watch to determine just how quickly a subject was rendered unable to fight anymore - in fact we don't know if he just quit because he wanted to in many cases.

As Tom pointed out, a significant number of people are going to quit just because you shoot them, even if the weapon is ineffective.

What we need to look for is the failures not the successes. Remeber, Babe Ruth, in his day (and arguments about the length of the season aside) was the most successful Home Run hitter... at the same time he led the league in strike outs. Of course M&S would not have counted the strikeouts since it took 3 pitches :smile:

The various .357 125gr. JHP loads are quite often instant and spectacular "stoppers" (especially on light game but also on people). The trouble is that they fail almost as often as the .38 LRN once we count past 1 or 2 hits. The reason is different but they fail just the same. Just think of poor Mark Coates who had 5 failures with torso hits in a row - and died as a result :sad:

Food for thought,
Jim Higginbotham

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jim Higginbotham on 2001-04-13 14:35 ]</font>
 

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Jim, never mentioned but I suspect the result of the 357 mag with a 125 is the effect of a involuntary physical reaction.

I suspect and have not taken the time to research the effect of a 1400/1500fps fps round entering the diaphram and causing "shock" inside the diaphram which in effect knocks the wind out of a person.

I am not talking balistic shock as is commonly discribed. I am talking more like a physical blunt trauma blow to the solar plexes to drop you. That kind of shock. I suspect as I mention that is the actual effect we are more often seeing, with the additional tramatic effect of the wound damage and bleeding out in the aftermatch of the intial wound and loosing ones wind.

Loss of wind allows the light fast bullet the time to bleed out internally if placed right...and becomes the "one shot stop".

Like any fight, getting a good strike in to SP is a great thing. A round house to the side of the head is better. I am begining to look at the small bullet as the sucker punch to the SP and the slower, heavy bullet as the round house to the central nervous system.

On of the few things that end a fight, "can't breath, can't fight".

As we both know having the wind knocked out of you doesn't end the fight. Bleeding out or damage to the cental nervous system does.

Care to Comment?
 

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I've heard wilder theories than that Dane. :wink:
 

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Well if the SP is a good target it would stand to reason that it would be best hit with a 77 gr bullet going 2000 fps. That should really disrupt your breathing ability. Or do I have that wrong?

I'm trying to justify my using frangibles here, the RBCD's. Even a neck hit would probably be devastating.

I'm thinking the only serious drawback to these loads is their limited barrier performance. They do have some barrier capability but nothing like a HP. How much of an issue is that for a civilian? Am I missing something else in this equasion?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Dane wrote;
<snip>
As we both know having the wind knocked out of you doesn't end the fight. Bleeding out or damage to the cental nervous system does.

Care to Comment?


While I understand the theory and don't disagree that this does happen (remeber Fairbairn alluded to this in "Shooting to Live"), the fly in the ointment is that many of the failures with multiple hits with a .357 125 Jhp struck the heart (which is pretty close to the SP) and some should have struck the SP. So perhaps it does happen in some cases and does not in others.

I cannot say with authority but perhaps a blow "over time" (as in huntredths of a second) works better to the SP than the Temporary Cavity which lasts very few mili-seconds. It may be that the British theory of "Dwell Time" does have merit but I can't say.

Interesting though.
Press on,
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Peter wrote;
<snip>I'm thinking the only serious drawback to these loads is their limited barrier performance. They do have some barrier capability but nothing like a HP. How much of an issue is that for a civilian? Am I missing something else in this equasion?

What you may be missing is the high degree of variance in "normal" bullets and the even higher variance in frangibles.

Get the tape "Deadly Effects" from Anite productions (a must for every serious gunman). If you listen carefully you will see that a .357 125 Jhp sometimes only penetrates 3" (in fact there is a case mentioned of a shot to the neck that failed I think) sometimes it penetrates 12" - one just never knows what you are going to hit *inside the body*, let alone whether you are going to hit an arm.

Just in the Miami shootout alone 3 FBI agents were arguably saved by the lack of penetration (or at least straight line penetration) of the .223 FMJ - which is considered by some to be more than adequate.

In the same incident the 158 +P failed to penetrate the skull from 90 degrees and at least one body shot gave only 4" of pentration. this load shows about 14" penetration in gelatin!

Pistol bullets are basically a crap shoot - won the lottery lately? :smile:

Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Mr. Higginbotham,

I was totally unaware of these facts. Thanks for the info and I will get that tape for sure.

Haven't even got 3 numbers on one card let alone won a lottery.

More food for thought.
 
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Peter,
More importantly why are you using frangibles? Is it a descision you made after evaluating your probable use of the pistol?
Eg: in a crowded area or in your apartment/home/town home with 3/8" sheetrock walls ( a .45acp JHP clogged with drywall will penetrate between 30-40" of gelatin after passing through a standard double sided hollow 3/8" sheetrock wall). Is your descision based due to reduced recoil, risk of spalshback? meaning are you most probably shooting in a concrete jungle? Is glass your primary backstop at home? Do you spend 12 hours each day in an automobile? Most people fail to think through thier daily schedules let alone visualize thier environment and how your defensive plan works for each one that you live in.
I recommend that all defensive firearms users/carriers seriously consider what they carry and how they came to the descision?
For every story that says this exact lot number caliber works as a death ray (these 80-90% numbers, so often quoted) you will find two that show it to be a miserable failure.
Think of the ammo selection process as an adaptive part of your defensive plan, after you have tested it all and become comfortable with your ammo/gun's capabilites and your capabilities.
 
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