[Shane1911]

Does anyone actually encorporate any long distance (25 yd. plus) exercises into their training? We all know about El Presidente, Mozambique and Bill Drills which are all practiced at relatively short ranges.

I don't mean taking the ocassional 50 yd. shot and seeing how close to your target you can come. I mean actually practicing at long range so you KNOW where the bullet will hit. Are there any drills that actually practice holdover/bullet drop techniques?

I'm not talking about your tricked-out, opto-sighted hunting/target gun either. I'm talking about your duty/carry weapon. If you only had one round in the chamber and it's life or death, what is the maximum distance that you KNOW you could make the shot? (Offhand or rested).

I guess this question is as much about your own confidence/ability as it is about the accuracy of your gun.

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Shane45-1911! I frequently shoot at bowling pins at 100 yards off hand with my Browning HPs and other such arms. It's certainly not a formal drill, just kind of seeing where "it" hits at this distance when sighted in at closer range. Once the amount of holdover is learned, one can do better than might be thought, but the holdover must be known. This has paid off a time or two, not in defense, but in popping small game.

Best.

 

[mnealtx]

Unfortunately, the range I frequent (when I'm home on vacation) only has a 25 yard pistol range. With that said, I'm still getting back into shooting after a dozen years off, so I'm still at about 10 yards, working on grip/stance/trigger control.

 

[emclain]

I think everyone should, periodically, shoot at longer ranges just to see how it works. I haven't done it in a while, but I know how my baby hits at 50+ yards.

Two cops just south of Chicago were shot in an incident in the last few years. They responded to a rural area after a domestic-type thing. The guy they faced was a sillohuete (sp) shooter. He clipped them both at 70+ yards with an 8" Python. They thought they were safely out of range.

Eric

 

[J Sanders]

Someone who knows what apistol can do at long range is impressive."War story" A friend of mine and I spent a day at the shooting range which had a max distance of 250 yds. I shot my 5" 1911 a 4 5/8 ruger 45 colt and a s&w625 all at 250 yds. you could observe about 70%of the rounds impact so you could tell what you were doing. I promise you a man could not stand in the open without catching around or two one out of two or three. I could have brought rounds on a vehicle at will at this range. I know people that can do alot better than this. Don't ever think your safe if you can see the other fellow has a gun of any kind, seek cover or leave!!

 

[Shane1911]

On 2001-04-01 16:57, J Sanders wrote:
...I shot my 5" 1911 at 250 yds... you could observe about 70%of the rounds impact so you could tell what you were doing

How much holdover was necessary to keep 'em on target at 250 yds? What load were you using? Does your dept. ever practice long range shooting?

 

[Guest]

Shane45 1911,
I have done some work and frequently practice at 100 and out to 300 yards with my
carry pistols.
These are the holdovers I have developed at
100 yards listed by cartridges that I have found can still be effective at that range:
1). .357 Sig P229 w/stock barrel-
Remington 125gr Bonded Golden Saber 4" on average or low chin level on the IDPA practice target to hit high chest area.
Winchester 125gr. JHP T Series 3-4"
same visual hold.
2). 9x23 5" Bul 1911 w/Barsto barrel-
Winchester X923W 125 gr. silvertip
2" to point of impact.
Winchester X923STHP 125gr. silvertip
3" to point of impact.
At 200 yards it requires an 6-8" holdover.
I have not tried it at 300 yards yet.
3). 10mm Glock 20 stock barrel-
Winchester 175gr STHP 4" to point of impact.
At 200 yards requires an 10-12" holdover, visual front sight on top of targets head for mid chest impact.
At 300 yards I cannot reliably hit the chest area, I have not been able to devise a holdover sytem although I have walked the rounds into the target.

 

[Shane1911]

Thanks guys for all the replies. Anyone have any data for .45 ACP with 200 - 230 gr. bullets, as far as hold-over?

 

[J Sanders]

Shane, I don't know what the hold over with a conventional sight picture would be. I was using my wilson with wilson nite eyes sites. Mine has a .160 tall front sight and I was holding all of the front sight and a little slide above the rear sight to get the proper impacts. The load was a cast 200 gr swc w/6.0 of w231. A little hotter load or a little less distance would have been more doable. I was running out of front sight with this load at 250. The s&w 625 with a 5" barrel has a partrige front sight that must be close to .300 high and with about 1/2 or maybe a little more above the rear sight hits were more certain than with the 1911. Later on:JS

 

[TacTrain]

shane;

45 ACP 230 grain MV 850 fps with a 25 yard zero and a .75" sight height, you will need to hold about 4.25 yards at 250 yards according to the tables. At 250 yards find, or place, something about 12 foot high and align your sight on the bottom. Then raise the barrel (top of front sight over the top of the rear sight) until you are aligned with the top of the 12 foot mark. This should give you a rough index. With my Kimber it takes the whole front post and the top of the muzzle end of the slide is about even with the top of the rear sight. My bullet is getting a little more than the factory 850 fps velocity.....but this should get you within a few feet of your intended target.

Best Regards.........George Dean
"Train to Defend, Train to Survive, Train to Win"

 

[Gunnar Christensen]

Interesting stuff, Shane.

I know a few (well a lot more than a few) years shooting .45's got me instinctively putting my groups high with 125's at 1480fps when shooting 50 yard IPSC targets in matches. Practice, OK, but in a match, I'd shift that aiming point up 3" and have myhits at the neck junction, and sometimes off paper.

Yes, most of us do throw some 50 yard practice into our schedule, starting &ending each session with one or two groups, usually prone. This has another benefit - you confirm the sights are OK - and you approach the next match KNOWING where you put the sights is where the hole will appear.
I'm an IPSC shooter, but this applies equally to most other disciplines.

 

[James]

My crowd regularly shoots milkjugs filled with water at 100 yard distances or so. You get instant feedback on hits and the holdover usually isnt more than the top of the jug so you can still aim somewhat normally. I don't think I could hit much at ranges beyond that unless in the prone position or shooting from a rest.

 

[Rosco Benson]

Those old-timers who recall King's "King-Tappan" sights, will remember that the front sight had a yellow dot with a yellow line running horizontally beneath it. The dot was for normal visibility enhancement of the front sight. The line was for 100 yard shooting. A sight picture placing the line even with the top of the rear sight took care of the elevation for 100 yard work with ball.

Rosco

 

[Jorah Lavin]

My little Kimber Ultra Carry (the only .45 I've shot) hits really low at 100 yards, and I'll admit that I haven't put too many rounds downrange at that distance, but I have thought a lot about some of the situations outlined in this thread, and I've wondered if there isn't something that I could figure out using the side of the slide to sight along, rather than the sights themselves.

My Colt .22 pistol shoots pretty close to point-of-aim at 100 yards and 20 yards. It is funny to see the looks on people faces when I "walk in" shots at 120 yards onto old clays lying out on the embankment. It isn't actually any harder than spraying a hose when you have a nice, dry day and you can see where each bullet is landing.

-Jorah

 

[gyp_c2]

Are those King-Tappan sights still available?

Is there a good picture available?

I think I'd like to have one or two of those...:wink:

 

[Rosco Benson]

I think the King-Tappans are still available. Check with King's Gun Works http://www.kingsgunworks.com

Rosco

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

Those old-timers who recall King's "King-Tappan" sights, will remember that the front sight had a yellow dot with a yellow line running horizontally beneath it. The dot was for normal visibility enhancement of the front sight. The line was for 100 yard shooting. A sight picture placing the line even with the top of the rear sight took care of the elevation for 100 yard work with ball.

"Old Timers".... I represent that remark Roscoe! :smile:

Actually I was just about to post the same thing when I read your post, with a little additional info.

Many of my 1911s are zeroed for 75 yards (I don't feel this is at all necessary for normal defensive work but mine usually pull double duty as hunting guns). With such a zero they are point plank for normal sized targets out to 100 yards. If I hold the entire front sight up all the way (bottom of .180 front sight on top of rear sight it is approximately on at 200 yards and just about every training session I end up shooting various deputies guns at 200 yards to show them thier sights are not really off :smile:

Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JimH on 2001-04-10 08:38 ]</font>

 

[David Blinder]

Jim, I didn't think you "old-timers" could see 75 yards.

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

On 2001-04-10 09:18, Blinder wrote:
Jim, I didn't think you "old-timers" could see 75 yards.

You have a point there. But if you launch enough bullets down range you eventually hit something :smile:

Actually, seeing past 75 yards is not the problem, seeing exactly 18" is the problem :sad:

Carry on and best regards,
Jim Higginbotham

 

[38 Super Combat Commander]

My buddy and I put Balloons out 25-50-75 and 100 yards away and see who can pop all the balloons first.Alot of fun and good training.