[MikeW]

I recently did trigger jobs on 4 of my 1911's. This entailed replacing 3 hammers with Nowlin commander style (hooks at .020"), cutting the sear surfaces (using Brownell's jig and stone set), polishing all engagement surfaces on hammer, sear, disconnector, and trigger bow, tuning the sear springs, and replacing the triggers with long Videcki's. All 4 consistently break at 3.5-4.0 lbs. I am very happy with the weights of the pulls, but I'd like to attempt to eliminate the creep that is felt between the take-up and the hammer fall.

Any ideas or suggestions???

Thanks,

Mike

 

[Peter Zahn]

Get rid of as much drag and friction as you can.

trigger bow/frame check for clearance
fingerpiece/frame check for clearance
trigger bow/magazine check for clearance
disconnector body friction, minimize it
disconnector/sear spring drag/friction
disconnector/sear hook finger drag/friction
mainspring/mainspring cap mainspring housing
friction
hammer/sear frame friction

Smooth out the trigger frame channel.

Friction and drag feel like trigger creep.

Give those a try

 

[Hilton Yam]

Peter's got the bases pretty well covered.

Did you cut a secondary/relief/escape angle on the sear?

 

[MikeW]

Hilton,

I did cut both the primary and secondary angles on the sears. I had to go back and redo one of them that had been damaged by the half-cock notch. Seems the overtravel wasn't adjusted properly. I'll probably replace that sear eventually, though. It appears to be made of a fairly soft steel. Other than that, I repolished every surface I could get to on the hammer, sear, trigger bow, disconnecter, and sear spring and now the release is about as close to crisp as I think I'm capable of getting.

Thanks much

Mike

 

[Hilton Yam]

Mike, FWIW, I've always had McCormick hammer/sear components in my guns, and they've been great. In my project Kimber, the CMC stuff just about dropped in for a decent pull. I'll still rework it, but it's quite usable the way it is now.

 

[gyp_c2]

Hi Mike...I recently did about the same thing. Did the polishing or was it re-polishing take up the slack, or rather, smooth out the creep enough?
On my SA it evened out at 4lbs after the polishing from about 4.75 before the job started...Did yours do somethin' similar?

 

[BBBBill]

Check your pull with the slide off & then with it on. Be sure to keep your thumb in front of the hammer when you have the slide off as you don't want to damage the hammer or frame. If it feels better with the slide off, your disconnector is probably dragging in the relief cut in the bottom of the slide. Brownells sells a scraper to deepen the cut t oeliminate that drag. Deeper, not longer is the key.

 

[gyp_c2]

Thanks bbbbbBill...:wink:

 

[MikeW]

gyp_c2,

I'm not sure if it was the re-polishing that took care of the problem, or the recutting of the sear. I haven't yet had time to try reworking another gun. I'll let you know what I find out.

Bill...thanks for the info. I'll have to check into that also.

Mike

 

[John Lawson]

To test for creep, very slowly depress the trigger until you feel the effect you described. Put your ear next to the hammer and touch the spur. If you hear a very slight click (as the sear point slips to the bottom of the hammer notch), you have creep. After applying the secondary angle, drag a black Arkansas stone lightly over the microscopically rough edge left when the secondary cut was made. Just enough pressure should be applied (usually only the weight of a 6" stone that is a half inch square) to remove the rough ridge. Then apply a good dry moly lube to the hammer notch.
Place the hammer and sear on your test plate and examine the mating surfaces as you press to release.
Don't confuse DRAG with CREEP. If y9u have done a few trigger jobs, you can instantly tell the difference. Again, most gunsmiths have never heard of lubricating parts with a dry, permanent moly lube, but Brownells and other suppliers stock several varieties. Never use a grease based moly lube if you have dry moly lube on your bench. The grease base will allow the lube to migrate and before a box of ammo has been fired, the parts will be partially bare or the grease will be diluted by powder and primer residue. Dry moly has a molecular affinity for cleaned steel parts and will remain, if not permanently, for a long time. Also, it does not retain residue like grease.
Incidentally, a 4 pound pull is a good average for inexperienced shooters. The more experience, the lighter the requested pull weight. (Ignore the propaganda about light pulls in the hands of experienced shooters being dangerous. Bullet placement is the name of this drill, and every gun is dangerous at all times.) If you feel that you are ready for a lighter trigger pull, I would respectfully advise you to get a second opinion.

 

[gyp_c2]

Don't confuse DRAG with CREEP

What is your way to remove all evidence of "drag"?

Thanks you very much for your description of how to remove "creep"!

:wink:

 

[John Lawson]

The answer to your question is very complicated, and cannot be given in just a few words. I suggest that you look for my article on the subject soon to be published.
A brief word to the wise:
"Molon Labe!" is ALWAYS the precursor to:
"Stranger, Go and tell the Spartans that we lie here obedient to their word..." And, recognition of the brave act is always slow in coming. In the sited case it took nearly 2,500 years for the Greek government to finally erect a monument to King Leonidas and his 300 Spartans, 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans!
Even so, the story of King Leonidas standing defiant in the middle gate of the pass at Thermopylae has been my favorite story since my mother told it to me at age 5, some 66 years ago.

 

[gyp_c2]

Thank you sir...

 

[BBBBill]

Gald to see John Lawson's presence here. I've enjoyed his writing for years, tho none quite so much as one of the earliest pieces of his I read. Something involving a cute little girl, a Springfield '03 bolt, and makin' swirly marks on the bolt body. My description doesn't begin to explain what really went on in that piece. Suffice it to say, it was outstanding.

 

[John Lawson]

Thank you. And, may your "swirly gigs" last forever!
A little known fact about the 300 Spartans: After their defiant stand at Thermopylae, as they lay dead to the last man, they were awarded, by the Persian Immortals, the highest Persian military honor...a red cord tied around the right wrist, signifying all wounds to the front and bravery above and beyond the call of duty. This is the only time in military history that an opposing force has been awarded the highest military honor of their opponent.
For those of lyou who don't know, King Xerxes was so impressed by the Spartans' bravery and their "fighting like machines" that he offered to spare their lives if they would surrender their weapons.
King Leonidas replied: "Molon labe!" (Come and take them!)
To which Xerxes angrily replied: "We'll loose so many arrows they will blot out the sun.
And, Leonidas' final reply was: "Then we'll fight in the shade!"
Fatalistic, perhaps, but the quotation has been adopted by American Patriots who do not intend to meekly surrender their weapons to the U.N. And, those of you who didn't, now know.

 

[John Lawson]

A lubrication application engineer made a special trip yesterday to being me a sample of an entirely new grease that lubes ANAD protects. It is fantastic in its staying power on mating surfaces.
It certainly does not replace a dry moly lube (this grease is teflon base, very fine particles)
I bought a number of plastic bottles and grease jars from him on the assumption that some of you might like to also try these new products. Unfortlunately, they are only available at present in 5 gal cans and by the case for the grease.
I'm not trying to merchandise this for a profit. The substances are expensive, but not prohibitive. They go a long, long way.
I'll have to figure out what it costs to load and pack the containers for shipping and what it will cost to ship in the U.S.
So, if lyou are interested, communicate with me by eMail and I'll let you know how much and when it will be ready to ship.
I'll also include an instruction sheet on removing perceptible drag on parts in the 1911.
I wouldn't bother you with this, but my preliminary experiments indicate these products will change lubrication practices by pistolsmiths for the better. I have had this engineer looking for specific types of products that would be suitable for use near the hot ejecta of a pistol. I feel that this is the answer (at least until something better comes our way.) Remember, I'm not looking to make a profit on this, so please be patient; I'm old and I fill containers very slowly to avoid spilling the precious contents.

 

[John Lawson]

A lubrication application engineer made a special trip yesterday to being me a sample of an entirely new grease that lubes AND protects. It is fantastic in its staying power on mating surfaces.
It certainly does not replace a dry moly lube (this grease is teflon base, very fine particles)
I bought a number of plastic bottles and grease jars from him on the assumption that some of you might like to also try these new products. Unfortunately, they are only available at present in 5 gal cans and by the case for the grease.
I'm not trying to merchandise this for a profit. The substances are expensive, but not prohibitive. They go a long, long way.
I'll have to figure out what it costs to load and pack the containers for shipping and what it will cost to ship in the U.S.
So, if you are interested, communicate with me by eMail and I'll let you know how much and when it will be ready to ship.
I'll also include an instruction sheet on removing perceptible drag on parts in the 1911.
I wouldn't bother you with this, but my preliminary experiments indicate these products will change lubrication practices by pistolsmiths for the better. I have had this engineer looking for specific types of products that would be suitable for use near the hot ejecta of a pistol. I feel that this is the answer (at least until something better comes our way.) Remember, I'm not looking to make a profit on this, so please be patient; I'm old and I fill containers very slowly to avoid spilling the precious contents.

 

[gyp_c2]

"so please be patient; I'm old and I fill containers very slowly to avoid spilling the precious contents. "

That sounds like me...I can't hold on to anything except a pistol or a chainsaw!

Hell of a note too...If I remember correctly, there was some old gals I used to know that actually liked bein' held! :wink:

That DOES sound like somethin' I'd like to try...I'll drop you a note with contact info :wink:

 

[Mute]

I was going to suggest two to COM and one to the head, but that obviously would not be the correct answer for this thread. :smile: