[Dane Burns]

This thread was removed after much thought and discussion. Feel free to continue that discussion in a open forum here. Please do not repost the video.

Regards,
Dane

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-23 03:04 ]</font>

 

[Shay]

I apologize if the original post and link offended anyone.

Shay

 

[JM]

Nobody here should have been so shocked by that video. This sight is devoted to weapons and skills that maim and kill people.

If people can't handle watching a detatched view of real violence, then they need to find another interest. The reality is that everyone of use may have to use our skill and "toys" to take the life of another human being. One needs to face the unpleasant and gory details that are inherent in that task.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JM on 2001-06-23 17:17 ]</font>

 

[Shane1911]

You are completely wrong JM. This site is devoted to responsible gun ownership, and the interest in firearms. I don't know a lot of people on this forum that have ever used their weapon to "kill or maim" people. I think the Camp Perry crowd and the IDPA/IPSC/USPSA gang might have issues with your statement too.

The video showed a mob-mentality execution. Did you even bother to read the text that said that the man didn't even receive a trial?

"Can't handle watching a detached view of real violence.." - Are you insane? What kind of person CAN handle watching violence? I have seen enough detached (and attached) violence to last a lifetime, and it's never a pleasant thing to watch. Maybe you need to head over to hardcore talk where they will "appreciate" your viewpoint. I DON'T. Do you know any Jewish people? Do you know anything about the Palestinian situation? This video was blatant propoganda, and for you to equate my love of firearms with anything to do with this video is absurd.

Do you have children that might surf the web and find this video? Is it OK for them to watch it? I have a daughter who would be horified if she saw this.

Yes, we own guns for various reasons including self-defense. Don't tell me that I need to find another interest because I don't think that this video was appropriate in a RESPONSIBLE, PRO-GUN forum. You need to give your head a shake - that video was NOT in our best interest as a public forum.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shane Kropf on 2001-06-23 20:34 ]</font>

 

[EchoFiveMike]

I thought it was an interesting illustration of the ineffectiveness of poorly aimed full auto assault weapon fire. The Arabs firing showed about as much skill with firearms as my dog. A good illustration of what not to do. Semper Fidelis..Ken M

 

[Dane Burns]

I think it is good to get a chilling reminder of just what we "play" with will do to another human being.

The end result of a wrong decision is pretty clear.

I have been in the shooting sports since grade school. I own guns for several reasons but the definative one is self defense.

Pays to remember what guns are REALLY for and what they defend in this country.

People shoot each other all over the world. There is seldom a black and white in anyone's political agenda or arena. The Middle East is certainly no different.

I find denying that fact or not considering the identification of people who do such things an insult to my intelligence, not propaganda.

 

[gyp_c2]

I appreciate the reason this was presented here and the choice of forums...Shay, I think you honestly presented this exactly as you stated and I thank you for your effort.
I agree with Shane on this one...The reason I had a difficult time with this one was because I didn't know how to explain to my children why they couldn't look through pistolsmith.com last week...
I've dealt with all sorts of issues around them seeing real violence and injuries of all kinds. My feeling after stayin' up all night and talkin' it over with a couple of other parents was to disallow them access to it was the best thing...
Let me explain...I've worked very hard to present my children real life while allowing them a childhood. I haven't censored much other than true violence for the sake of it.
I don't "hide" things from my children. If it's in my house, it's suitable for them...I never hid my weapons or made a big deal out of the children handling them. They've always been taught what things are for and they've seen some representative examples of what weapons can do. I felt a lot like others who've posted in the past re: being hit over the head with rudeness and vulgarity...I acknoledge it's real, it's here, but I don't need to see and hear it over and over to get the point.
In this case, the video wasn't required. An edited photo would have done just as much for showing a bullet wound without the attendant details. I worked as an EMT for 3 years and I've seen enough to understand what bullet wounds look like, inside and out. I have shown my children bullet wounds that didn't include all the detail and I assure you, they know what bullets can do. The video was inappropriate for them and just wasn't necessary. I thank everyone. I know how difficult an issue this was and how hard the folks worried over it. I think less is more for this sort of thing and to tell you the truth, I'm not comfortable havin' to tell my children they can't use the computer.
It's the first time it's happened here and I truthfully felt bad that my choice of material was inappropriate for my kids...I've always encouraged them to learn and up until this particular item, I was happy to have them learn from all you guys and the material that's available here.
That's just my two cents...nobody asked for it, and it's worth what you paid...

 

[John Nelson]

On 2001-06-23 17:54, Shane Kropf wrote:

The video showed a mob-mentality execution. Did you even bother to read the text that said that the man didn't even receive a trial?

Oh Golly, the real world. Do you actually think this is an isolated incident.

Maybe you need to head over to hardcore talk where they will "appreciate" your viewpoint. I DON'T. Do you know any Jewish people? Do you know anything about the Palestinian situation? This video was blatant propoganda, and for you to equate my love of firearms with anything to do with this video is absurd.

So which side are you taking Shane, PLO or Israeli?

Do you have children that might surf the web and find this video? Is it OK for them to watch it? I have a daughter who would be horified if she saw this.

I have seen alot worse on cable and at times even the networks will show clips similiar to these with one of their 2 second warnings before they air it. Have you surfed the web recently, there are alot more disgusting things out there that curious minds can and will find given the opportunity. I know, I have two teenage daughters.

Yes, we own guns for various reasons including self-defense.

Can civilians own handguns in Canada for SELF-DEFENSE??

John



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Nelson on 2001-06-24 10:50 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Nelson on 2001-06-24 11:08 ]</font>

 

[Shane1911]

John, I don't have a problem with what you are saying - I know that (unfortunately) this is life in a lot of places.

JM's comments were out of line in defending the posting of this video.

PLO or Israeli???!!!! I'm not taking ANY sides, and I would have no personal or professional reason to do so. The point was, that this video showed a MURDER. It had no merit as far as learning anything about firearms, ballistics or anything else gun-related.

Yes, there is worse out there on the web. The point being that my daughter is curious about THIS forum that her dad helps moderate. She did NOT need to see this.

I hope you were joking about the last comment John. If you were not, then do not lecture me about a situation on the other side of the world, when you don't know anything about a country that borders your own. We can legally own handguns (with a few more restrictions) just like you can. What we (and you) choose to own those weapons for is up to you. Do you think Canadians have less of a right to defend themselves and their families?

 

[Dane Burns]

The reality is that everyone of us may have to use our skill and "toys" to take the life of another human being. One needs to face the unpleasant and gory details that are inherent in that task.

I agree 100% and most haven't a clue what the results are. For that reason alone I think this video had merit.

 

[Dane Burns]

The point was, that this video showed a MURDER.

I think that comment is being EXTREMELY judgemental. Things aren't the Queen's rule or a Civil Court in the US for the majority of the world's population. You betray your family or your country in the rest the world and death is served up in short order. What you consider a legal trial may or may NOT be appropriate for their circumstances.

It had no merit as far as learning anything about firearms, ballistics or anything else gun-related.

Firearms and the world we live in isn't the tidy community that we might like. People kill each other. They do it with knives, bombs, guns and land mines among other tools.

This forum is indeed about guns. It is also a tiny part of the realities of our world. As small as it is there are connections now to all of it. How many members and lurkers do we have from the Middle East? How many from the Balkans?

I don't have children. If I did I would shield them from what I thought harmful. I wouldn't show them that particular video. But I would take the time to talk about it if they did see it.

Explaining how people can hate each other so much is not an easy task. I wish I hadn't found a small understanding of that fact myself.

Do you think Canadians have less of a right to defend themselves and their families?

No I do not. But the governments of Canada, England, Australia, China, and a number of other countries in the world believe otherwise.

Let's take another look at the video from a fantasy Palastinian's out look. How about the informant tells the IDF that the neighborhood he lives in has several bomb making factories because he fears for his family's safety. Lets say that the factories are blown up and the neighborhood is destroyed. The bomb makers are killed in the process...dozens of them.

Their bombs are trace-connected to dozens of killings of Israeli civilians, many of them children.

The informant holds a Palastinian passport. He confesses to his neighbors that he informed to the IDF the location of the bomb factory.

The man was trying to protect his family, the bomb makers were trying to secure their homeland and the Israeli's trying to do the same for their own.

Problem is, the dozens killed blowing up the factory were my family. How much of a trial past the confession do I need to judge the informant guilty of having them killed? How do I know his next action will not endanger me?

Things are seldom clean and precise. This video isn't, neither are gun rights. Neither is self defense.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-24 17:24 ]</font>

 

[Shane1911]

Dane, re-post the video.

I was simply looking out for the best interest of a PUBLIC gun forum in a gun-sensitive world. I don't care about my or your personal opinion. We have a greater obligation.

I GIVE UP. IT'S YOUR FORUM.




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shane Kropf on 2001-06-24 17:02 ]</font>

 

[Dane Burns]

Shane, it isn't about your opinion or my opinion. The video under discussion doesn't need to be seen here.

I agree with you on that point.

I do believe what is beneficial to all of us is a dialog about violence and guns and the world we live in.

Debate and discussion is a good thing IMO. There doesn't have to be a winner. What is needed is understanding of the subject matter.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-24 17:19 ]</font>

 

[Shane1911]

On 2001-06-24 17:14, Dane Burns wrote:
The video under discussion doesn't need to be seen here.

I agree with you on that point.

Thank you - that is all I ever wanted in the first place. I too, agree that our passion and love of guns can also be the source of a great amount of violence and human damage. I am not arguing this point.

The world is a scary place. People do scary things. Justice is not served the same way in a lot of other foreign countries. Most can never understand that, until they've seen it first hand. I have trained with several elite Israeli teams - and I know A LOT of horror stories that would make this video look like Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. We do need to discuss issues that are far more reaching than our occassional trip to the range to put a few holes in a paper target. There is no dispute that our tools that bring us enjoyment, can also be the instraments of incredible damage, which most people - hopefully - will never need to see.

If we can discuss these issues without prejudice to race, religion, creed or colour - that is good. If we can scientifically evaluate and learn from those discussions, even better. And if after all that, we can walk away and thank God that we live in a relatively civil society with a justice sytem that does the best it can, and we can't imagine the horrors of living in some other cruel place - then I suppose we have succeeded. We all take a lot for granted living in North America - there is NOTHING wrong with discussions that re-confirm that.

 

[Guest]

When we are faced with questions of our own mortality the issues can often become clouded.

Often as enthusiasts, we can and do choose to remain behind the veil of "sport" or "training" always training for the inevitable day of reckoning but fearing it at a much greater level as we have been educated in the art of conflict .

This is in line with western culture and our societal mediocrity.
The human tendencies of dominance, aggression, and destruction are ignored and instead the ideals of the few are distributed to the masses in a very controlled rate to allow for the absorption of this material in a very comfortable manner.

When faced with the reality of the human as predator few are truly desensitized enough by the flood of pseudo violence that exists in the parallel Hollywood universe.
Societies as whole have come to expect the popular values to prevail and when this expectation is exceeded it is both frightening and disturbing.

At his roots man is the most violent and aggressive creature to ever exist, it is this capability that truly frightens the human soul and threatens our own personal self image.

I would submit that the video was equally beneficial as it is disturbing.

We can regulate this issue as closely as one can legislate common sense, both with equal effectiveness.