[Daryn Briggs]

Hello all, first time user, poster, or whatever I should call myself here. I am looking for information concerning a minumum number of rounds that officers should fire annually in training. Is there a national or state (TX) standards? I am the lead firearms instructor for my agency and am trying to make some improvements to our training program. If anyone knows of such a standard or has any written info to back up a certain amount, I would be greatly interested. If anyone has fought this battle with their agency and won already, please reply so I can learn from your efforts. While I am sure my agency is not unique in this regard, the biggest obstacle is the money.
I would also be interested in opinions about should officers have to qualify with every weapon they would carry (on or off duty) if it is the same operating system (1911, Glock, etc). I feel that they should but wanted to see if there was a majority out there.
I really enjoy this forum and think it is an excellent idea.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Oddjob]

My agency qualifies quarterly. Each quarter the course of fire is different. We don't have a minimum rounds one needs to fire for training purposes. Our training and qualification is two different portions of the range program. We do both and thus tend to fire I would guess 1500-2000 rounds per year per LEO. My agency is very much a pro-training agency. As a matter of fact I believe it to be the best in my state (Calif).

We qualify with both on and off duty weapons and require the off-duty weapon to be of the same specs as a duty weapon (no 22 LR's, 25ACP's and .32 ACP's). We do not advocate the carrying of the same weapons system. We are allowed to carry most anything from revolvers to 1911's to Glocks to Sigs and etc. Its been my 19 yr rangemaster experience that this allows the officer to shoot better when they are allowed a choice of weapons and calibers. I'm only talking about handguns. If you carry a fullauto weapon add another 2000-4000 rounds per LEO. Is it expensive?? YEP!!! Is it worth it?? YEP!!! We allow our people to check out ammmo if they want to go shoot on their own time (and not just 50 rds...several hundred if wanted).

 

[JohnH]

You may want to get a copy of the Popov court decision. If I recall, this was either US District or Supreme Court decision that outlined the minimum training standards expected by the courts. It required things such as shoot/no shoot, moving targets, and low light encounters.

 

[Seventh Fleet]

Hello and welcome to the forum, I'm also a FBI trained Police Firearms Instructor and Armorer. Most progressive agencies shoot at least four times a year with one of the shoots being a minimum standards qualification course. The other three shoots are training where the Officers use their judgement in shoot/don't shoot situations. We also run our people throught the FATS course once each year, which they all look forward to. Call your State Peace Officers Standards and Training and find out what minimum your state sets and then train to a higher standard than that. This will be good for vicarious liability purposes, if you ever have to defend your agencies policies in court. Your agency does have a "Policys and Procedures Manual" with a section on the use of deadly force, don't you? If you don't have one, get one drawn up right away.

7th

 

[Brillo]

I haven't seen anything regarding minimum standards for firearms. The State I'm in mandates twice-yearly firearms qualification. I've however seen adult-learning studies that shows retention of training drops precipitously after 30 days, which implies to me that firearms training should occur every 30 days.

I run my shift's qualification as a training exercise, which I do quarterly. Minimum number of rounds is 46 (everything on their belts) plus 10 for the shotgun. No maximum on the ammo use, it goes as long as it takes to pass the exercise.

I'd love to get a copy of the "Popov" decision - I couldn't find it online, searching either the Supreme Court website or the District court websites.

 

[DepMur]

I believe the standards set by TCLEOSE are a 50 round qualification course once a year. At my Dept. we qualify a minimum of 3 times a year with a night qual. thrown in every once in awhile. Our training recently has included section specific training and once a month our range is open for a "open shoot", officers bring your own ammo. I think that a good standard is to qualify 4 times a year with duty weapon. Qualify once a year with BUG and off duty gun, twice a year with shotgun(min 25 round course) and offer training on a monthly basis with emphasis on shoot/dont shoot, non dominant hand shooting and shooting while moving. Feel free to email me and we can exchange ideas, I'm not to far from Denton. You might also want to contact Denton SO, the LT over training there is a good guy... Stay Safe

 

[Daryn Briggs]

Brillo,
I found out that it is actually "Popow" The case is Popow vs City of Margate (476 F. Supp. 1237[1979]). Margate is in N.J. and the case was 1979. I couldn't find it on FindLaw.com but it's got to be there somewhere.

 

[thor]

This once (and graciously) sent to me from
>Officer Sherman Graves
>Rangemaster/Armorer
>Arnold Mo. PD


>In Popow vs. City of Margate, 476 F SUPP. 1237 (D.N.J. 1979)
>
>the court held that the firearm's training received was inadequate for the
>circumstances officers had to operate under. More specifically, the court
>said that training needs to include;
>
>a) moving targets
>b) low light or adverse light shooting
>c) residential areas
>
>or any experience with film or simulations designed to teach the
>practical application of deadly-force decision making. The court held that
>firearm's training should also include instruction on State Laws, City
>Regulations, (and/or policies) on shooting, and how they are applied in
>practice. The court also held that firearms training must be given on a
>continual basis.
>
>In the above case the court did not define what constitutes "continual
>training". Again, our current firearm's training does not incorporate any of
>the above issues.
>