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Bill,
I like the news letter and I beleive this is the same incident that was posted on the blade (forum) website a few weeks back under "word to the wise" or "my experience" i beleive, I did not bookmark the page? Anyone?.
If it is the trainer gets a fair amount of press and from what it sounds he needs a "pro" to attend the class and teach him a lesson.
 

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I think Gabe's premise is laudable. No one should ever be hurt while doing training.

In the gun environement that is a clear point in case.

Mix up unarmed self defense and knives and the situation becomes a little more complicated. It would be nice for several reasons if no one got hurt.

Mix live blade with physical contact and you will at some point have injuries. Do any type of contact in H2H and sooner or later you will have injuries.

There is a difference between using pain as a learning tool (simunitions, fist suits and full contact come to mind) and using pain to boost the instructors ego and humiliate the students.

It helps to have whitnessed the instruction, know the instructor and understanding the teaching points of the program before you get started. (in other words, ask) Past that vote with your wallet.

Some of the most important lessons I have learned in H2H and knife classes as a student have been VERY painful ones. I don't believe the instructors ever wished to embarrass me or inflate their egos while doing so.
 

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We routinely incorporate large amounts of pain in H2H and other training. Very often it's just part of doing the job, a healthy dose of exhaustion. In H2H it's usually negative reinforcement, eg: that didn't work too well and I got choked out, I'll do something else next time. I suppose it very much depends on the people you are teaching. What we can do with a Marine sniper platoon is very different than what you can(should) do with an introductory handgun class. And always, it's not to build an instructor's ego(although it is sometimes neccessary to maintain an instructor's authority) it's to train the student. Semper Fidelis..Ken M
 

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My guess also. The bad blood thing anyway.

I have not seen the name of the instructor involved but feel free to post the original thread if anyone finds it.
 

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And these articles have what to do injured students?

In this country, we are innocent until proven guilty.

_________________
Amboss Oder Hammer Sein

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JM on 2001-06-28 23:32 ]</font>
 
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I also do not know who Gabe was refering to in his article, although with respect to what I believe is the topic of discussion, should a student who is seriously training in knife fighting (or any other combat training) expect to get hurt at some point during his training, yes, I think it is entirely reasonable to expect to learn a painful lesson or two.

On that point Dane, I respectfully disagree with you.

Should a teacher inflict pain just because he can or to inflate his ego? NO, that is unreasonable and entirely inappropriate.
But to make a blanket statement that a student should not get hurt during training is, in my opinion, also unreasonable and provides unrealistic expectations on the part of a serious student of any kind of tactical training.

Students who are not serious may well indeed expect to never get hurt, because they get out of training exactly what they put into it.

People like Kevin are interested in training those who are ready to learn, even if the lessons are occassionally painful. Instructors like him may not be for everyone, but they are who the serious students are looking for.
 

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On 2001-06-24 18:06, Dane Burns wrote:
Mix live blade with physical contact and you will at some point have injuries. Do any type of contact in H2H and sooner or later you will have injuries.
Helps to read my entire post before you decide you disagree with me.

I actually do teach COMBATIVES a combination of gun skills, knife and H2H. I didn't know you or Gabe did.
 

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I don't know who the newsletter is referring to, site I went to was not so easy to navigate.

Dane, as anyone who trains at a high level knows, is absolutely correct. Injury is a part of the process. I have broken toes, fingers, ribs, my nose, and teeth...and I have never trained with anyone who wanted to hurt me, for ego or otherwise. The seperations, sprains and pulls, too numerous to count.

Check out the Dog Brothers sometime, playing full contact with a minimum of protective gear, well, it is just part of the shit that happens. If that is not a part of the package you are ready to accept, stick with katas only, I guess. :grin:
 

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Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the press on my newsletter. Its free and open for all to see at my site http://www.suarezinternational.com

As to the naming of names, unlike many on the forums, I am a gentleman and will not sling the flying feces. There's plenty of that already in many other forums (as you are all no doubt well aware). I was invited to post here by one of you and was told that everyone uses their real name so the poo pooo is kept under control.

A student of mine, (a round old attorney novice, not some SEAL or Marine in his 20s) told me he had trained with a noted "martial arts" instructor, and that it was clear that the aim of the exercise was for him to sell his wares and show everyone how "bad" he was.

Well, that deserved an article, because this was not a class of high ranking black belts, or a Force Recon H2H course, but rather a bunch of high dollar earning accountants and doctors. From the story he told me, it was not cool at all. This is a small community and instructors that abuse students won't last.

Rather than an acusation, its a wake up call to everyone (the ninja death master specially included), that our students may not be as high speed low drag as we are, and that pushing them around will not change that.

Someone mentioned an issue of "bad blood". I don't hold grudges nor keep bad blood around me, and that is hardly what the piece revolves around. On the other hand, for those who may have bad blood against me, I'm always open for business.

I'll forward this to the man who relayed the information to me, since he was the actual victim of the ninja-death-master, and leave it in his hands if he wants to elaborate.

Until then, feel free to visit my site. We have many new and exciting things brewing, not the least of which is the Free Newsletter - The Tactical Operator, of which you have been talking about.


Thanks and God Bless,


Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com

"He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze."
2 Samuel 22:35

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Gabe Suarez on 2001-07-25 03:11 ]</font>
 

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A student of mine, (a round old attorney novice, not some SEAL or Marine in his 20s) told me he had trained with a noted "martial arts" instructor, and that it was clear that the aim of the exercise was for him to sell his wares and show everyone how "bad" he was.
Gabe, with all due respect to your experience in law enforcement and as a trainer, you need to have your attorney friend explain the hearsay rule to you.

If you wish to relate the fact that your student reported that he was injured during a training class taught by another instructor, that's fine. But you have no personal knowledge whatsoever as to what actually occurred in this other instructor's class.

You have simply used the reported fact that your student was injured to launch into a diatribe about an individual with whom you have a well-known feud. You weren't there. You didn't see how the injury occurred. You don't know what was said or done by the other, nameless instructor during the class. Your newsletter article was based entirely on your pre-existing opinion of that instructor, and I think anyone reading it would be forced to conclude that it is simply a personal attack on that instructor.


_________________
Aaron Alfano
NRA Life Member

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Alfadog on 2001-07-25 10:21 ]</font>
 

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Well, here we go again.

Without mentioning anyone's name, (for which no doubt you would be just as incenced) you have already made up your minds about who this article was about.

Very interesting. This is like yelling out, "Hey you, Mr. Child Molester", and then having one man in a crowd turn his head 'cause they called him out. Interesting indeed.

Could it be...Perhaps...just maybe...that there is a great deal of truth to the so-called hearsay in this case, eh? Maybe that its ALL true??? Can't fake an x-ray.

Secondly, my newsletter is my newsletter. The really nice thing about that is that I don't have to worry about offending anyone, being politically correct, or any such silliness. I can tell the trurth, as I see it, just like any publication in the country.

Bottom line - If any ninja-death master sees himself there, has his feelings hurt, too bad. He can deal with it. He can sue me. Or he can take it like a man and clean up his dojo.

If you don't like that, or don't like my writing, then simply don't read my newsletter, my posts, or visit my site. I've never been PC, and I'm too old to start now. Simple, eh? And then don't post about what you read. Simple as that.

But then again, 10,000 readers in several continents can't be ALL wrong.

As I said, the article was an accusation to the many martial arts instructors out there who use the tactics described, whether they fit the charicature depicted or not. Unlike the man to whom you think this is aimed at, I kept names out of it. You seem to want to bring them in. As I said, I'm not going to do it.

Curious, how you make statements about my motives, yet I don't recall you making the same admonition to those whom you are thinking of. What's good for the goose, etc. etc.

Keep it coming though, I've received so many new subscribers since this thread opened up, I feel I should thank you.

Gabe Suarez
Suarez International, Inc.
http://www.suarezinternational.com

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

Matt 10:34
 

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I would like to thank Gabe for his post. I think the point was to urge people to know who they're dealing with, on both sides. As a student, you should research your instructor/training school beforehand. The amount of "Tactical" shooting schools has grown significantly, and no doubt some are just trying to impress themselves and others.
Personally, when I seek training, I look for someone that has used what they teach, in real life. Just because they've attended a dozen fancy schools, or are a manufacturer of knives/guns/holsters doesn't mean they are good instructors. Experience is the key.
Gabe has always been very helpful and honest with me, and I cannot say the same for a few others out there. I was personally involved in the situation hinted at earlier, which took place on another forum, and I can assure you that he is not the one with the grudge. It's the other way around.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Clay on 2001-07-25 12:46 ]</font>
 

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Gabe,

First of all, I agree with you that if an instructor purposely injures his student solely to gratify his own ego, he has no business being an instructor. My point was that you draw several conclusions about WHY and HOW the injury occurred based on only one side of the factual story and your opinion of the individual involved:

I got an email from a student who had attended a martial arts knife fighting
course put on by someone he respected. Has he asked me about this superhero of his, I'd have told him to steer clear, but that is another story.
Now, based on that statement in your article you obviously already had a negative opinion of this instructor when you received your student's email.

Secondly, my newsletter is my newsletter. The really nice thing about that is that I don't have to worry about offending anyone, being politically correct, or any such silliness. I can tell the trurth, as I see it, just like any publication in the country.
I hope my post did not come across as questioning your truthfulness--that was not my intention. You have a right to say whatever you want, and I would not expect to read anything but the truth as you see it in your newsletter. But I think it is important to distinguish between FACTS and OPINIONS, and it seemed to me that you took the fact that this injury occurred and, based on your opinion of the individual involved, concluded (i.e., reached a second opinion) that the injury was the result of the instructor's need to gratify his own ego. I do not think that is a fair conclusion based on only the facts reported in your newsletter and in your earlier post.
 
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