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Shane

Perhaps I over-reacted here...

I should NOT post on this kind of subject, and knew it was a mistake as I hit the " Submit" bar.

I tend to view responses to my type of post on this subject as somewhat " charged " and that is _my fault_, one of many I have.

All the more so since it is a matter of supreme indifference to me as to what people stoke their blaster with. My purpose was not to try and convert anyone to FMJ, nor deride anyone using HP`s.
Whatever makes them happy.....

...and if you do want some good GI .45 Mags still in the wrap give Eric The Ammoman a ringup and tell him you want 10 at the price he gave Rich L. Who knows, he may be dumb enough to do it.. :wink:

Take It Easy.. :smile:
 

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Blackjack,

I appreciate the civil response to my somewhat sarcastic retort - for which I do apologize.

To each their own, but there is truly a lot of good information that will tell you that one shot out of any handgun (with any caliber) is not enough. Hardball has its place, but HP ammo is still the way to go should you need to try to stop someone with a handgun - and you should keep shooting him until he has stopped doing what he was doing that made you shoot in the first place. Not many instances of one-shot stops.

I do believe in shot placement, which I feel competent enough to deliver accurately. I have NEVER considered firing only one round with the belief that my accuracy + my wonder bullet will instantly disable my target.

Regards, :smile:
 
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If I may make a suggestion, proving that our selected ammo will fuction 100% of the time through testing in our personal firearm is priority number 1.
If we have identified function, then ability/recoil/accuracy tie together in stage two.
Once we have determined that we are reliable and accurate then penetration and energy transfer come into play.
If we have adequate penetration without excessive over penetration, then energy transfer comes into play. It is not important how we transfer the energy.
As long as we transfer the energy into the target we can do it through any method such as bullet expansion, fragmentation, birdshot, lead balls, plastic or epoxy.
Marketing hype and ego aside any design that will meet our citerion is the combination that will produce "stopping power".


_________________
Thanks,
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-05-10 17:46 ]</font>
 

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Just so I'm clear here, I completely agree that reliability is Job One for ammo. And I don't think JHPs are going to give you a huge magical advantage... I'm just a believer in grubbing for every itty bitty edge I can get, so to speak. :grin:

Priorities for choosing ammo IMHO go something like this:

1. Reliability
2. Accuracy
3. Low flash
4. Everything else
 

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There is some very cheap surplus GI ball on the market right now. Is this WWII stuff, reloadable, reliable, noncorrosive, safe?

Thanks
 

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The object of shooting exercise is placement. The object in a gunfight is placement and penitration. I have carried expamding rounds in my .45 that have proved to reliably operate the weapon. I have never felt under armed with 230g. ball. It has its useful applications and its limitations. Calthrop
 
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Issue Resolved.


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Think, Plan, Train, Be Safe.
Thanks,
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-06-27 01:32 ]</font>
 
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Below is a pic of Winchester Govt. issue 230gr "ball" that was used in the "real world" it required only one shot, and did not over pentrate the torso. It entered through the left abdomen, passed through the chest coming to rest against the rt. shoulder blade.


 
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I wanted to update my question/post and to discuss an issue I am now facing.

First,
The 1,931 documented shootings are in fact legit.
Second,
I have spent over 30 hours reading through them to date.
Third,
I honestly have no idea how to correlate and post the results.
I am welcome to suggestions?

I will explain my statement,
I cannot locate a consistent pattern in these shootings as to effectivenss or some standardized rate of effectiveness.

For example:
41 shootings required more than 7 rounds of "ball" ammo to incapcitate or "Stop" the attacker/enemy all with "fatal" wounds to the torso.
Over 1,000 of the incidents involved more than one shooter engaging the attacker/enemy.
In 213 cases the 230gr round failed to pentrate deeply and in 309 incidents the round over pentrated the torso and went "off into space".

Some of the rounds that overpenetrated could be deemed as "failures" and others in the same location "worked".

Over 400 incidents required 2 rounds, 12 incidents the wound recieved was to a non-threating extremity arm/leg etc. and the attacker/enemy expired instantly.

It goes on and on without a clear pattern or some discernable statistics as to the overall effectiveness of 230gr "GI Ball".
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
It goes on and on without a clear pattern or some discernable statistics as to the overall effectiveness of 230gr "GI Ball".
Asked to comment, here is my take on the subject matter. 10,000 poor samplings in a survey doesn't make a good survey. From the results I am seeing here I would say the sampling techniques are clearly faulty to produce any kind of reliable stats from the info you have David.

I am not a stats guy. Had to take three classses in College on the subject. One twice.

I think that when you apply scientific research to the shooting results collected in an anedotal manner you have lost the majority of the useful material collected.

Couple of examples. I know of an incident that a extremely fit person fell and broke their Tibia. Painful yes. Fatal, no. That person died from shock befor an evacuation could be mounted. Another person, not nearly as fit, same circumstances exactly, walked out under his own power with a worse break to the tibia?

Does that mean 50% of the time if you break a tibia you will die? Of course not! But the incidents happened.

How about a flesh would to the hip. Bone only grazed. Instant stop on one person. Not even noticable on another. This happened too.

Life/circumsatnce/luck/will has a way of doing different things to different people.

I want to know what happens when someone is shot by the observers recollections on sight and the post shooting info.

Does it mean a lot? I don't think so.

Shoot them in the right place. Shoot them a lot, in the right place. More importantly attempt not to get shot while doing so.

That isn't the answer everyone is looking for but that one will solve the ammo question I suspect :smile:
 

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My Amigo Dane has written an incredibly thougtfull post there.... they must have the "drip" finally adjusted on his medication :grin:

Seriously, way to go!!!

I couldn't improve on that if I tried so I won't. And thanks to David for all is labouraous work.

Jim
 

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I have to agree with Jim. Well, I don't know whether the drip on the meds couldn't be improved ( :eek: ), but he's right about Dane's post.

Dane, it may not be the answer to any question that's been asked so far, but it is the right answer to the right question.
 

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Seems to me, the information is exactly what's needed...What is not, is trying to make something out of it that you can't...Great, great, presentation... :wink:
 
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