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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been using this load in my new Kimber. Anyone have any opinions on it or what the best 45 defense load is? I'm aware that the feds use Golden Saber 45 and that load choice probably isn't as critical with a 45 as long as reliability and accuracy are up to par. Any thoughts on the +P version of this load vs the standard pressure load?
 

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Hello. Out of my Kimber Classic Custom, the Remington 230 gr Golden Saber averaged 847 ft/sec. Out of my gun and my hands, it did not group quite as tightly as did Federal's Hydrashok in the same bullet weight. In various test media, the saber's always expanded, but I've not shot any critters with it. If you set stock in Marshall & Sanow's numbers, I think it runs neck and neck with Federal's 230 gr Hydrashok in terms of the elusive "one shot stop."

But......placement is everything in my view.

I have shot the 185 gr +P Sabers, but have no figures on them.

Best.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stephen A. Camp on 2001-05-09 21:04 ]</font>
 
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Do you like the Golden Saber's availability, price, accuracy, firing charcteristics such as accuracy and recoil with muzzle flash?
Have you examined your environment and the possibile locations where you are most likely to need your handgun?
We know that the 185 and 165gr +P rounds where designed to increase velocity and functioning from shorter barreled .45acp handguns, is your gun full size or reduced size? We also know that the 165 and 185gr +P rounds over expand and underpenetrate in game animals (these animals weigh less than the average man) when fired from 5" and longer barrels. Only you can test functionality in your individual firearm, does it function 100%, when you hold the pistol weakhanded, upside down, sideways, with three fingers, how about two? If your pistol/ammo combination will not work in these simple tests then you need to revaluate.
Once you can answer all of those questions for yourself then you will have chosen the "right" ammunition and pistol design to achieve "stopping power". Then go practice with it a lot, even if it means selling off a "collection" to pay for the ammo, you can feel confident that the FBI tested the TRP psitol with a lot of Golden Saber ammo and they will have the budget to practice with the same ammo extensively.

Please guys no more talk of one shot stops and statistics that fail at the first level of examination, if you do not believe me take the "fuller" index and attempt to average it mathematically. We all know that even the .50BMG does not achieve one shot stops 90% of the time, about 70% with center mass hits, you can be assured that the same .50 removes almost all of the vital organs from the chest cavitiy but we have all read the anecdotes/cases where enemy soldiers continued to fire for several minutes.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-05-10 11:07 ]</font>
 
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I was testing my G36 this afternoon and picked up two hundred rounds of the Golden Saber 185gr +P ammunition.
I was very disappointed in the load as velocity was fairly erratic and the muzzle flash when I reduced the over head lighting was awful. Not .357 magnum bright but definitely white flash bright. I also picked up some Federal Hydra shock 230gr JHP and I was very impressed with the revised bullet design, I was not aware that Federal had changed the design until I examined them side by side again, but accuracy was indeed improved substantially from a lot that I picked up factory fresh last spring. The new lot’s start with 255285T087. I will test them for penetration and expansion some time next month.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
On 2001-05-12 22:36, David DiFabio wrote:
I was testing my G36 this afternoon and picked up two hundred rounds of the Golden Saber 185gr +P ammunition.
I was very disappointed in the load as velocity was fairly erratic and the muzzle flash when I reduced the over head lighting was awful. Not .357 magnum bright but definitely white flash bright. I also picked up some Federal Hydra shock 230gr JHP and I was very impressed with the revised bullet design, I was not aware that Federal had changed the design until I examined them side by side again, but accuracy was indeed improved substantially from a lot that I picked up factory fresh last spring. The new lot’s start with 255285T087. I will test them for penetration and expansion some time next month.
Thanks for the info. I'll stay away from the 185 gr +P GS. My gun has a 5" barrel so I really prefer heavier bullets anyway. I was just curious about different opinions on the lighter bullet load. Have you fired the 230 gr GS in low light? I'm a bit surprised that flash was a problem since Remington advertises flash retardant powder as being used in GS. This is a good example of why you need to shoot it yourself! I'm going to do so ASAP with the 230 GS. Please let us know the test results you get with the Hydra-Shok.
 

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My experience with GS is very low muzzle flash. Sam
 

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Any experience with the Magtech Gold 185 +P?. It seems to be a very affordable ammo, with just the punch of the GS 185 +P. They really make them feel when launched form mi Glock 36. About the GS 185 +p, i don't remeber to have to much muzzle flash when firing from a Glock 30. At last, wich are yours opinions about the Hornady XTP 230 +P?
 
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I would have no problems reccomending the lighter loadings like the 185's for short barreled guns like the G36.
The +P loadings are designed to increase slide velocity not "stopping power" this was done originally in Police Service autos to improve function in the mid size guns.
When it comes to bullet designs my advice is to test them and pick one that you like, as all of the conventional designs perform at about the same level.
The XTP is a design that can be relied upon if you place your shots in the vital zones as can be the Winchester Ranger Talon loads, although the talon loads can be hard to get if you are not LE.
I don't know how you guys test muzzleflash but I lower the lighting in the indoor range until I can just see my slide and then test fire the rounds in question, when I am at indoor ranges that will not allow me to lower the lights I use a pair of Desantis low light goggles.


_________________
Think, Plan, Train, Be Safe.
Thanks,
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-05-13 16:07 ]</font>
 

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Hello, Mr. DiFabio and all. I've found Golden Sabers to be quite eratic in their extreme spreads in 9mm, .357 Magnum, and .45ACP.
I think, but cannot prove that it has to do with the driving band that comes in contact with the bore. An imperfection, or variation there would represent a much larger equivalent "mistake" on a bullet designed with the traditional bearing surface.

I could be wrong.

Best.
 

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This is what I got during a G-36 T&E.

Federal 230 Hydra Shok 813 fps
Golden Saber 230 838 fps
Speed Gold Dot 230 +P 970 fps
Win Ranger SXT +P 230 973 fps (LEO)
Win Ranger SXT 230 813 fps

I didn't have any 185 gr. Saber at the time to test. I did get some for a Springfield TRP Professional.

Golden Saber 230 837 fps
Golden Saber 185 1026 fps
Golden Saber 185 +P 1115 fps

Speer Gold Dot 230 +P 1043 fps

Win SXT LEO 230 859 fps
Win SXT LEO 230 +P 962 fps

Fed 230 Hydra Shok 867
Fed 165 Hydra Shok
Personal Defense load 1036

Hope this helps....
 
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Thanks Rob, I may need to take a closer look at the Gold Dot 230gr+p loading as it seems to have good velocity/pressure out of the short barreled Glock. This should make it very functional and the Gold Dot is a good design for passing through intermidiate barriers to reach your target.
Jim,
Do you have any Gold Dot 230 grain info or feedback?
 

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On 2001-05-14 17:26, David DiFabio wrote:
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Jim,
Do you have any Gold Dot 230 grain info or feedback?
I am sorry to say I don't. It may be just me but I have seen several Speer factory loads push the bullets back into the case (not only with 1911s but with Glocks). One of our students gave me 3 rounds of Speer ball that did just that in our late 5-day class.

Testing in wet newsprint tells me the Gold Dot is a superbly designed bullet but the speer factory ammo puts me off a little. It does usually clock what it is claimed or better and should be great in revolvers.

I did shoot a small pig with a 124 Gold Dot loaded in the 9X23 to 1550 fps. It retained almost all its weight and deformed (not the classic mushroom but it still expanded some) and penetrated a bit over 9" and bumped up aginst the off side leg bone (which it did not damage). I can't imagine any other 124 doing any better.

Sorry not to be of more help,
Jim H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
On 2001-05-15 17:53, Jim Higginbotham wrote:

I did shoot a small pig with a 124 Gold Dot loaded in the 9X23 to 1550 fps. It retained almost all its weight and deformed (not the classic mushroom but it still expanded some) and penetrated a bit over 9" and bumped up aginst the off side leg bone (which it did not damage). I can't imagine any other 124 doing any better.
Hi Jim. When should we be at your house for the BBQ? BTW, I attended the 1st RangeMaster weekend course you guys held at FOP Range in Birmingham. Enjoyed it very much!
 

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On 2001-05-16 11:45, DblTap wrote:

Hi Jim. When should we be at your house for the BBQ? BTW, I attended the 1st RangeMaster weekend course you guys held at FOP Range in Birmingham. Enjoyed it very much!
Belive it or not, I gave the thing away to a couple of guys who couldn't wait to take it home and put it on the spit... the thing only weighed 75 pounds... sandwich size :smile:

Glad you liked the course! We aim to please :grin:

Best Regards,
Jim
 

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I have had a lot of shootings with the guns I work on. One man who was a body guard got in a shoot out with 3 people and he used golden saber ammo 230 grain 45 acp, he killed 2 and the 3 rd survived, but the gun and ammo saved his life.
I spoke to a pathologist in Kansas and he told me he saw devastating results with gold dot 45 acp, this was a while back.

Teddy
 
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Teddy,
I believe I know the BG you reference above and I have had only poor experiences with the 185gr +P version. I used/carried a lot of the first generation non-spiral cut 230gr Golden Saber ammo in my Les Baer SRP over six years ago while on a long assignment, all with good result and I found it to be good ammo.
 

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I have heard of extreme spreads of velocity and accuracy with Golden Saber ammo, but I have never encountered a problem myself. I have fired hundreds of the 180gr. 40 cal. load, as well as the 230gr. 45 with no problems at all. I've used it in extreme heat(110F) as well as extreme cold(-20F) and even swam with it on two occasions, both times the gun and ammo were soaked for almost a week, again zero problems.
 

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David, I've been seeing the Gold Dots in several different brands. Do you know if the Cor Bon 230gr JHP is a Gdot? They sure look a lot alike...The POA and way they feel in my SA 4" is alike as well. I have noticed that they both have a similar muzzle flash which is less than the Triton in 165, 185 and 230gr weights... I haven't chronographed either but they advertise like MVelocity. They both are reliable feeders and are extremely accurate as well. Do you have any experience with/or knowledge of these two loadings? I see you're looking for the GD info...anyone else?

TIA
 

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I have a friend who's a weapon instructor for LAPD. According to him, when they (the LAPD) tested .45 rounds to be approved for use by the officers, they finally settled on Winchester because it was the most consistent. I should have asked him to clarify what he meant by consistent. I assume accuracy, velocity, OAL of rounds, etc...

He said they were also quite impressed with Federal Hydrashok, but selected Winchester for the above stated reason. I believe he was carrying 230 gr. Black Talons.
 
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