[Dane Burns]

I have seen any number of folks state in public forums that cuffing someone is an option in a self defense or home invasion environment. I have cuffed plenty of unhappy and non cooperative people myself.

I have also had hours of training on how to do it efectively and still don't think it is safe. There is a reason that LE suggests you do it with at LEAST one partner.

For those that think their martial arts training or size and abilities over come this threat IMO you are dreaming.

Next time you think that YOU ARE THE ONE GUY capable of doing so, think of this....... most Cons get to practice defeating handcuff techniques for MONTHS on end and I'll bet not more than a hand full on this list can claim practicing cuffing techniques past 40 hours of real time practice TOTAL. (bet those guys aren't suggesting cuffing alone either)

Then remeber this story and ask me how I know personally that Cons practice those kinds of time frames and why I suggest you NOT attempt cuffing anyone without some serious and specific training to do so and a partner trained at the same level?

It only takes one good lesson to square this away.

8 July 01

"Within the last ninety days, two Harris County (Houston) Deputy Sheriffs
have been shot to death in two separate incidents. Both involved the
deputies attempting to make arrests of high-risk suspects by themselves. In
both cases, only one suspect was involved.

With sidearm drawn, the deputies commanded the suspect to face away and put
his hands behind his head. The suspects complied. As the deputies
approached, holstered their pistols, and unsnapped their cuff case, the
suspects continued to be cooperative.

Both suspects made their move just as the first cuff was snapped onto their
wrist. With their free hand they retrieved a pistol, one from his waist band
and the other from a back pocket, and immediately fired shots backward, over
their shoulder. Both officers were suffered fatal neck wounds. Since the
suspects didn't actually turn their bodies to face the officers, their
movements were not immediately interpreted as threatening. Both suspects
fled the scene with a handcuff still on their wrists.

Both suspects (since arrested) were gang members, as there is considerable
speculation here that the shooting technique they employed is being taught
within the membership of several local gangs."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-07-13 02:30 ]</font>

 

[David Blinder]

Agree completely. People talk about subduing the BG but the reality is that it's not very easy or smart to attempt it single handed. If the BG poses no lethal threat, you don't have the right to use deadly force so all he has to do is not comply. You can tell BG "put your hands up" but if he chooses to walk away, what do you do? Shoot him? Not unless you want to be a Bubba receptacle.

 

[Shane1911]

This is a good topic Dane. Not a lot of conversation happens about the "art" of cuffing. You are absolutely correct about its inherent dangers.

I would highly recommend AGAINST the average citizen from attempting to restrain someone with this method.

Most jurisdictions allow citizens the right to use as much force as necessary to hold/stop/restrain/prevent-from-leaving, until the police arrive. Cuffing a home invader should be the LAST thing to consider if you must restrain someone.

 

[Guest]

Dane,
If we are discussing my mention of using flex cuffs in a personal defense situation I will need to disagree with you fully.
As it is being taken out of context, my advice to anyone that must use a firearm in self defense and is then required to continue to engage and search for other targets is use tham as you will need to be able to resrtain these individuals from returning to do you further harm.

It is very common for temporary loses of consciousness to occur when sustaining gun shot wounds and quite often the perp. who took two and went down, will wake up full of adrenaline and decide he is now really going to run away or he is really pissed and is going to return to the fight.

My pretext does assume that the individual has been at least temporarily incapcitated.
Under no circumstances do I reccomend even two or three persons attempt to put a raging person in bracelets.

I know exactly what you speak of as during class at the Police Academy I got to play the mamniac and it took 11 people to put the bracelets on me and I wasn't even pissed or really motivated.

I used to make money by betting guys that I couldn't break their cuffs when restrained behind the back, it always cost them $100 and they always purchased hinge cuffs after that...:smile:

If you are at home alone, do not attempt to apply restraints to your attacker.

 

[Dane Burns]

If we are discussing my mention of using flex cuffs in a personal defense situation I will need to disagree with you fully.
As it is being taken out of context

While I was not speaking specifically to your comments David I'll use your quotes to make my point. No one, who has any experience, suggests that you attempt to cuff alone. Not for any reason. It is bad advice and likely to get someone hurt...someone being YOU.

Your "wounded and restraint" scenario makes little sense in that context.

David D. sez:
If you are at home alone, do not attempt to apply restraints to your attacker.

Easy enough advice to take. One of my points here is we (anyone on this list with experience) need to seperate what is worth while information to pass along to the several 1000 here and what in our personal experiences should be kept to ourselves.

Good examples would be, when "we" might attempt to cuff someone, another is pinned grip safeties. Lots of things I might do that I would never in good conscious suggest another do.

We are generally discussing fairly serious topics here. Never hurts to remind ourselves of that fact.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If I, Joe Homeowner, subdue a home invader and get the crazy notion I should cuff him, does that not mean that I am then responsible for his well being while he is in my custody? In other words, say the invader manages to get himself shot (either by me or because he AD'd himself) and I cuff the guy. I risk my life by entering his personal space in order to cuff him, fearful that he may be playing 'possum or not be as badly injured as he claims. I then must seek medical assistance for him, correct?

Now, if the invader is down and the police have been summoned, I have the options of either retreating from the threat or keeping him covered with a gun from a safe distance. I don't have to provide medical assistance or request it for the guy because he is not in my custody and until he is cuffed by me, my responsibilities are only to protecting myself and family, not rendering aid. Once the police arrive and cuff him, then he is their responsibility for medical assistance.

Personally, I have no wishes to cuff a person and then be responsible for them and their well being while they are in my custody.

 

[Dane Burns]

On 2001-07-16 00:04, Double Naught Spy wrote:
If I, Joe Homeowner, subdue a home invader and get the crazy notion I should cuff him, does that not mean that I am then responsible for his well being while he is in my custody?

Correct.

In other words, say the invader manages to get himself shot (either by me or because he AD'd himself) and I cuff the guy. I risk my life by entering his personal space in order to cuff him, fearful that he may be playing 'possum or not be as badly injured as he claims. I then must seek medical assistance for him, correct?

As soon as you are physically able to, yes, you would be required to render all assistance within you abilities. If he happens to bled out or have medical complications from being hand cuffed during a medical emergency..say he chokes to death on his own blood, yes you have assumed an enormous amount of liability.

Now, if the invader is down and the police have been summoned, I have the options of either retreating from the threat or keeping him covered with a gun from a safe distance. I don't have to provide medical assistance or request it for the guy because he is not in my custody and until he is cuffed by me, my responsibilities are only to protecting myself and family, not rendering aid. Once the police arrive and cuff him, then he is their responsibility for medical assistance.

You have obviously thought this through farther than most. My compliments. Your pertinent points are, getting close to a dangerious person who may or may not be injured, risking injury by doing so and then having to be responsible for someone under your custody that you may or may not have the ability to care for.

Personally, I have no wishes to cuff a person and then be responsible for them and their well being while they are in my custody.

Me neither! Nice followup, and information worth passing on, thank you.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-07-16 00:37 ]</font>

 

[Guest]

Actually here in PA you are responsible for his well being the moment that he ceases further action against you.

If you cuff him, shoot him, or offer him some of Sallys meatloaf and he gets food poisoning you are equally liable.

If you tell him uncuffed or cuffed, bledding, or not to move down the stairs and he falls and dies you are still liable.

This I know from expensive personal experience and legal representation on such matters.

In other states I do not know, but in PA I am cuffing each and every intruder in my home each and every time.

What each person does is up to them, handle it in the best way that you know.

 

[Bruce]

Here is where I have the most trouble with this:

If you are in your home, with a bad guy or multiples in your home, we all tend to agree that the best scenario if children are also in the home is for the children and 1 parent to be in a neutral or "safe" room. Which means, unless perhaps you live in Utah and practice polygamy, you or your spouse is alone trying to clear the place [let's just overlook the potential stupidity of that, for now]. So, bad guy #1 draws, you get off first, perp goes down. Now, the reason to restrain the perp is so you can move on through the house...because you think, or don't know, that other perps might be in the place, right?

Who has your back while you are disarming, searching, and getting bad guy #1 in a position to cuff him?

On the internet or in conversation, many things seem possible. We don't factor in the adren dump that is occurring, the low or no light, ears screaming because of gun fire in an enclosed space without hearing protection, etc., but we must.

It sounds as though David is well trained, and has a well thought out plan. Can't argue with any of that. My plan does not include getting down on the ground with some jackass that just broke into my family's haven in order to get him disarmed, rolled over, wrists together, cuff out, cuff on all while naturally disoriented due to the circumstances...AND while others are milling around looking to kill me and mine. Space and cover are your allies, why give them up?

Now, with that said, if we are talking team procedures, completely different story.

This whole thing reminds me a little of hunting in rattlesnake country. Buddy shot a snake, it was clearly dead or mortally wounded...bird dog comes in to check stuff out and gets bit on the nose...then, the snake went back to being dead. Assumptions are the hardest things in the world not to make. Don't assume the guy is dead, don't assume others won't come to save him.

Caveat to what I have said: I am not a cop, nor have I had cop training.

 

[Guest]

On 2001-07-16 10:55, Bruce wrote:
If you are in your home, with a bad guy or multiples in your home, we all tend to agree that the best scenario if children are also in the home is for the children and 1 parent to be in a neutral or "safe" room.

Agreed

Now, the reason to restrain the perp is so you can move on through the house...because you think, or don't know, that other perps might be in the place, right?

Possibly, but not probably.
The first assumption is based on engaging the perps before they are in your bedroom or are in the hall blocking your way to the kids room, or you were not in the shower when it happened with the wife in the den, the kids in the basement and your dog outside to do his business.
The pretext that engaing an itnruder will only happen while you are all together and even on the same level of the home is a very dangerous assumption.
I would wager that given most families busy schedules that you will probably find yourselves at opposite ends of the home.
Understanding that 70% of all home invasions occur during daylight hours and 80% of all residential based sexual assualts occur between 6am-12am how likely is it really to say that you will not need to go and round up your family?

Who has your back while you are disarming, searching, and getting bad guy #1 in a position to cuff him?

Who had your back when the intruder followed your wife in the back door while she was unloading groceries and you were watching the Matrix DVD in the family room?

On the internet or in conversation, many things seem possible. We don't factor in the adren dump that is occurring, the low or no light, ears screaming because of gun fire in an enclosed space without hearing protection, etc., but we must.

The adrenalin dum issue actually overrides the ear ringing issues and is drastically overstated in these discussions often to the point of serious exageration.
The internet may be a lesser of evils,
discussing the issues and possibilities are the only way to truly play them out.

Even sweeping your house with your spouse or practicing room clearing with the local Delta Force team will not properly prepare you for all of the variables.
Roll play them in your mind then talk them through to get others opinions.

It sounds as though David is well trained, and has a well thought out plan. Can't argue with any of that. My plan does not include getting down on the ground with some jackass that just broke into my family's haven in order to get him disarmed, rolled over, wrists together, cuff out, cuff on all while naturally disoriented due to the circumstances...AND while others are milling around looking to kill me and mine. Space and cover are your allies, why give them up?

My plan does not include any of the issues you have presented. Training is only practice, it rarely matters if your mindset and mental preparation are not there.
Doing everything to win means just that.

Now, with that said, if we are talking team procedures, completely different story.

Any time we have other persons involved it has become a "team" situation with or without your consent or acknowledgement.

This whole thing reminds me a little of hunting in rattlesnake country. Buddy shot a snake, it was clearly dead or mortally wounded...bird dog comes in to check stuff out and gets bit on the nose...then, the snake went back to being dead. Assumptions are the hardest things in the world not to make. Don't assume the guy is dead, don't assume others won't come to save him.

Even the dog can learn in your situation, where was the owner? A child can easily make the same mistake, so can you. Don't play with dangerous animals including snakes..

Caveat to what I have said: I am not a cop, nor have I had cop training.

Being a cop would not make you anymore qulaified, except you may have recived more training in the use of deadly force and your states laws.

Actually being a Delta/Seal/SAS operator would do little to qualify you for the task of working with your wife and children to ensure that your home is safe and secure and you can master your environment.

The incident will last far longer in the memories of your loved ones and coping with the very damaging aftermath and effects from being exposed to such an incident is where real discussion needs to take place.

*Lastly, and most importantly if you are not comfortable with restraints do not use them.
If you are not 100% confident with any aspect of your plan do not use it. Advice is like anything else use what works for you, investigate it further in practice/training and evaluate it.
If it does not apply to or work for you discard it.
Their has never been a "gunfighting" expert or a master tactician that demonstrated 100% knowledge of the issues, there are and have been survivors and those who were smart enough to move on.

Use what works for you, I do
and what works for me probably will not work for you.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: david difabio on 2001-07-16 16:40 ]</font>

 

[Bruce]

David, I appreciate your response, but some of it is fairly cryptic...to the point of being vague.

Touching off several rounds inside a home will bring on an inability to hear certain low output sounds, ie., footsteps on carpet. The point was, combining all that is happening while facing an unknown / unseen opponent changes perceptions or the ability to perceive. That it may be slight, is irrelevant.

My comment about "team" apparently was misunderstood. In theory, I suppose the wife upstairs is a teammate, not in the sense I was using the word though.

In short, you are right, what may work for us won't work for each other. Part of the beauty of life, I guess.

 

[Guest]

Bruce,
No issue intended or meant.
The short answers are not meant to have underlying meaning.

I was reponding from my Kyocera plam/web phone and it took 20 minutes to type.
But I was waiting and had a few minutes so...

Please understand that far too often I bleieve my posts are being used as instruction when they are really just my thoughts as if you and I were sitting together discussing the issues and I am offering some ideas.
Please do not read them as a refute or potential disagreement.
I am not an expert at anything that I am aware of and I really hope that I do not come across in that manner.
My shortness is only due to time, nothing more.

I only have my personal experiences and insight to share, if it can help you or offer an idea you may not have thought about good.
If my advice or insight won't work for you,
I am really OK with that.

More importantly, I hope that each person reads my posts, thinks them through and adopts a plan that will work for them.

 

[Bruce]

No issue here either, man. Wow, typing that on a palm pilot...now I feel bad.

Listen, the only way we learn is if people speak. Everyone shuts up...we all get a little dumber. Your post made me think, which is always good.

Now, I am building a house...gimme some security tips that have worked...you just built, right? Leave out specifics if you choose, I will certainly understand. That is my new brainstorm project.

 

[kahana]

As a non-expert myself in most things I find myself inolved in I look for posts and threads like this one with multiple opinions.

I feel that I (we) learn much more when we are presented with varying opinions/information that we take and put together into our knowledge base. Then this can be applied to our own situation/circumstance, using pieces from each.


The last thing I want to see is a long thread with everyone in agreement.....(not as if that's going to happen) :smile: :smile:

Keep it up ......

laters,

gr

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kahana on 2001-07-17 09:26 ]</font>