I have been thinking of having this option done to my Springfield and would like to know of any advers conditions this my cause and seeing some different configuarations prior to sending her off for this enhancment and refinishing. Thanks for the pics and advice .....ROFI
Hi cut front
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High cut front? As in dishing out underneath where the front strap meets the trigger guard?
STI factory single stacks have this and I like it a lot from a shooting standpoint. I also think its ugly.
That said, most every 1911 I own has this mod.
Tom
AF Shooting Team
STI factory single stacks have this and I like it a lot from a shooting standpoint. I also think its ugly.
That said, most every 1911 I own has this mod.
Tom
AF Shooting Team
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378 Posts
Colt Enhanced models (and XS/XSE) have the high cut, and it feels great, it's one of the reasons I only buy Colt's now (besides the cute little horsey :smile:
I don't think it really detracts from the appearance, but that's a personal preference. Now when I handle "uncut" guns, it feels like there's a big lump under the trigger guard :smile:
I don't think it really detracts from the appearance, but that's a personal preference. Now when I handle "uncut" guns, it feels like there's a big lump under the trigger guard :smile:
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126 Posts
I do not care for the front strap cut as high as on Colt enhanced, but I do like it high as on a Kimber or somewhere in between the two.
Aside from potentially weakening the frame, there are several possible ergonomic effects, which may or may not apply to a particular user, depending on his anatomy and shooting style.
When the frame is cut really high the trigger finger can end up approaching the stirrup at an angle which is not conducive to a trigger press/pull which is straight to the rear. The result may be shots which do impact in the location intended by the shooter.
With a very high cut fronstrap the hand is more likely to interfere with the mag catch protruding from the right side of the frame. This is especially true when wearing gloves.
One area often overlooked, is matching the beavertail to the frontstrap cut.
When the frontstrap and beavertail do not match the pointing characteristics of the pistol are altered. For most users a standard cut frontstrap with a high grip beavertail (like an Ed Brown or McCormick) will point low.
Add in grip and mainspring housing variations combined with grip techniques (high or low thumb) and you have a lot of potential to change the feel and handling of the gun.
Best results will be had if the shooter and gunsmith work on this together with a systems approach in mind.
Aside from potentially weakening the frame, there are several possible ergonomic effects, which may or may not apply to a particular user, depending on his anatomy and shooting style.
When the frame is cut really high the trigger finger can end up approaching the stirrup at an angle which is not conducive to a trigger press/pull which is straight to the rear. The result may be shots which do impact in the location intended by the shooter.
With a very high cut fronstrap the hand is more likely to interfere with the mag catch protruding from the right side of the frame. This is especially true when wearing gloves.
One area often overlooked, is matching the beavertail to the frontstrap cut.
When the frontstrap and beavertail do not match the pointing characteristics of the pistol are altered. For most users a standard cut frontstrap with a high grip beavertail (like an Ed Brown or McCormick) will point low.
Add in grip and mainspring housing variations combined with grip techniques (high or low thumb) and you have a lot of potential to change the feel and handling of the gun.
Best results will be had if the shooter and gunsmith work on this together with a systems approach in mind.
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71 Posts
I would just like to mention, be careful concerning your configuration of a high undercut triggerguard.
I have seen two of the Colt Delta Gold Cups(10MM) get frame cracks in the area due to the amount of metal removed....not just for the high cut on the trigger guard but because of the combination of that and the wider cut for the Gold Cup style trigger.
I would like to state that Colt replaced the frame with a standard one for one of the owners at no charge to him. The other owner had to have his replaced twice since when they replaced it the first time they put the same frame style in and it cracked like the previous one did. They then replaced it again with a standard configuration frame, even fitting the beavertail and I believe thumb safety for the customer. All of this was done at NO CHARGE. That is service!
Just want people to be aware of this if they purchase a gun configured with these two features or are considering customization. Safe Shooting, G. Kennedy
I have seen two of the Colt Delta Gold Cups(10MM) get frame cracks in the area due to the amount of metal removed....not just for the high cut on the trigger guard but because of the combination of that and the wider cut for the Gold Cup style trigger.
I would like to state that Colt replaced the frame with a standard one for one of the owners at no charge to him. The other owner had to have his replaced twice since when they replaced it the first time they put the same frame style in and it cracked like the previous one did. They then replaced it again with a standard configuration frame, even fitting the beavertail and I believe thumb safety for the customer. All of this was done at NO CHARGE. That is service!
Just want people to be aware of this if they purchase a gun configured with these two features or are considering customization. Safe Shooting, G. Kennedy
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687 Posts
I have taken them to as close as .030 to the bottom of the trigger track. I have never done it to a gold Cup that I can remember but will take that wider trigger into consideration if I do. I like to either get specific instructions ("Get that mother as high as you possibly can"), or at least a good feel for what the customer wants, but I do the hi-grip to 90+% of the guns I do (not just 1911's), and am usually in the .050" area. I don't consider it a serious weak point, since the trigger track is fore/aft and the hi-cut is side to side, the thin metal occurs in a very small area. Quite right about matching the beavertail height, and mainspring housing mods. A lot of times, though, changing the feel is what we're going for. I really like a super-high grip, and a radically reduced MSH. Throw on some thin grips and it feels like a .380.
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687 Posts
Here are some pics as requested. These range in vintage from 1985 to two days ago. Upper left, the scribed line represents the bottom of the trigger track. The yellow arrow is just to clarify the highest point of the hi-grip cut, as the pic is a little dark in that area. That point is right at the tip of the arrow. This one is, ah, a work in progress.... I work on this one an average of three hours a year, that's since 1983. It's for me, so at least you guys know that I give the worst "gunsmith timing" to myself. All of these have .040-.050 steel between the bottom of the trigger track and the top of the hi-grip cut.
Dane, the one in the background has sorta like the Wave only it was a real calm day at the lake. Customer-designed, plain-Jane straight grooves. He wouldn't let me do anything fancy on the frontstrap, but I got over on him by checkering the breechface, the underside of the Wilson sight, and the feedramp!
Lower right, unrelated, sorry-- a mainspring housing I did today that I wanted to show n' tell. It spells "Back Off" in Clingon.
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-09-29 00:13 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-09-29 00:20 ]</font>
Dane, the one in the background has sorta like the Wave only it was a real calm day at the lake. Customer-designed, plain-Jane straight grooves. He wouldn't let me do anything fancy on the frontstrap, but I got over on him by checkering the breechface, the underside of the Wilson sight, and the feedramp!
Lower right, unrelated, sorry-- a mainspring housing I did today that I wanted to show n' tell. It spells "Back Off" in Clingon.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-09-29 00:13 ]</font>
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-09-29 00:20 ]</font>
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378 Posts
Klingon?
That's insane...
How much would you charge to do it? :smile:
That's insane...
How much would you charge to do it? :smile:
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687 Posts
Criminy (kriminy?), did I misspell Klingon? At least now you know I'm not a Trekkie....
To do an entire 1911 (I don't think this should me mixed n' matched withn checkering), that is, frontstrap, MSH, and optionally extended to the memory bump of the grip safety, $220 (add $20 for the memory bump).
To do an entire 1911 (I don't think this should me mixed n' matched withn checkering), that is, frontstrap, MSH, and optionally extended to the memory bump of the grip safety, $220 (add $20 for the memory bump).
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687 Posts
Dang, I was afraid somebody would ask that. Ya know, I'm starting to see a need for a measurement unit that can be used to express the amount of stickshun given by different frontstrap treatments. Like the amps, angstroms, and AMU's (Atomic Mass Units, not Advanced Marksmanship Unit)of frontstrapdom....
Anyhoo, this design gives less than any of the treatments you mentioned.... I'd say it's maybe the equal of a mild stipple job. bear in mind I just did it and have not even shot it yet.
Anyhoo, this design gives less than any of the treatments you mentioned.... I'd say it's maybe the equal of a mild stipple job. bear in mind I just did it and have not even shot it yet.
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3,831 Posts
"Pistolsmith's adhesion values" other wise known as "PAV".
Bald steel with STP added :grin: = -0
Bald steel dry = 0
30 lpi serrations = 2
Skate board tape = 2 to 3.5 dependng on grit
25 lpi serrations = 2.5
20 lpi serrations = 3
scallops = 3
30 lpi checkering = 3.5
WAVE = 3 to 5 depending on final finish
25 lpi checkering = 8
20 LPI razor sharp checkering =10
Feel free to add another texture or disagree with me :grin:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-09-30 23:25 ]</font>
Bald steel with STP added :grin: = -0
Bald steel dry = 0
30 lpi serrations = 2
Skate board tape = 2 to 3.5 dependng on grit
25 lpi serrations = 2.5
20 lpi serrations = 3
scallops = 3
30 lpi checkering = 3.5
WAVE = 3 to 5 depending on final finish
25 lpi checkering = 8
20 LPI razor sharp checkering =10
Feel free to add another texture or disagree with me :grin:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-09-30 23:25 ]</font>
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687 Posts
By machine or by hand, you ask? Feh. Anyone can do it that way. I chewed it in!
Good system, Dane (kinda figured it might be you came up with a rating). Conamyds I'd say give about a PAV 6 to 8 with a full shooting grasp, but I think better release than checkering when the grasp is loosened.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-10-02 09:15 ]</font>
Good system, Dane (kinda figured it might be you came up with a rating). Conamyds I'd say give about a PAV 6 to 8 with a full shooting grasp, but I think better release than checkering when the grasp is loosened.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ned Christiansen on 2001-10-02 09:15 ]</font>
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3,831 Posts
"Pistolsmith's adhesion values" other wise known as "PAV".
Bald steel with STP added = -0
Bald steel dry = 0
30 lpi serrations = 2
Skate board tape = 2 to 3.5 dependng on grit
25 lpi serrations = 2.5
20 lpi serrations = 3
scallops = 3
30 lpi checkering = 3.5
Shallowmyds= 3 to 4
WAVE = 3 to 5 depending on final finish
Conamyds= 6 to 8
25 lpi checkering = 8
20 LPI razor sharp checkering =10
Release values are very important...
"RV"
Shallowmyds, Scallops, Wave and Conamyds are an improvement over checkering of any style, IMO for concealed carry.
Thanks guys...this one will go to my web sight at some point. I currently own or have in progress, bald, 25 lpi serrations, 20 lpi serrations, 30, 25, 20 lpi checkering, Scallops, Wave and Conamyds coming for my personal use. I am looking forward to a good comparison session of all.
Bald steel with STP added = -0
Bald steel dry = 0
30 lpi serrations = 2
Skate board tape = 2 to 3.5 dependng on grit
25 lpi serrations = 2.5
20 lpi serrations = 3
scallops = 3
30 lpi checkering = 3.5
Shallowmyds= 3 to 4
WAVE = 3 to 5 depending on final finish
Conamyds= 6 to 8
25 lpi checkering = 8
20 LPI razor sharp checkering =10
Release values are very important...
"RV"
Shallowmyds, Scallops, Wave and Conamyds are an improvement over checkering of any style, IMO for concealed carry.
Thanks guys...this one will go to my web sight at some point. I currently own or have in progress, bald, 25 lpi serrations, 20 lpi serrations, 30, 25, 20 lpi checkering, Scallops, Wave and Conamyds coming for my personal use. I am looking forward to a good comparison session of all.
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