[Bill Go]

As a relatively new USPSA to IDPA convert, I am curious regarding the most prevalent holster position in IDPA, given its emphasis on real world practicality and concealment. From my informal survey, FBI cant appears to be the most common holster configuration. Anyone out there using a staight drop? Tony K. at Milt Sparks told me that the late Bruce Nelson favored a straight drop, but I don't know if concealment was a key issue with Mr. Nelson. I am currently using Blade-Tech belt loop holsters in FBI cant. Comments, please.
Bill Go

 

[Shane1911]

I use the FBI cant for duty and for games. To me it just makes sense.

A further question to yours would be - who carries one style for carry/duty, and uses another style for IDPA?

 

[Bill Go]

Good question, Shane. I thought about that myself, i.e. using a straight drop for competition and an FBI cant for actual carry. I decided to go FBI cant for everything since it just made logical sense to do everything one way (the old saying you "fight like you train"). I noticed in the latest IDPA newsletter that Ken Hackathorn is reminding members to heed the IDPA rule that the trigger pad us supposed to go BEHIND (not on) the centerline of the body, which favors an FBI cant.
Bill Go

 

[Louis F. Alessi]

Bill, Actually, it depends on where you feel most comfortable wearing the gun. If you like to carry the weapon at the side seam of your pants, or forward of that, then a straight drop would be the choice. It should be noted that as you start moving the gun back around the hip, the angle must be increased to allow the gun to be drawn effectively. I like to wear a gun just behind the side deam of my pants, which for me is comfortable, and concealable. It also provides for protection of the weapon using one's elbow.
Lou

 

[Hilton Yam]

I find that the straight drop is very fast, but harder to conceal. A certain amount of cant helps concealment, but there is a point of diminishing returns as the holster will need to be moved back on the waist. You'll end up reaching or contorting to draw, which will slow down your draw stroke.

Also important to draw comfort/speed, and frequently neglected, is the height of the holster relative to the belt. You'll have to figure it out for yourself what works best, but those with shorter torsos will generally find that high ride rigs are a pain.

 

[38 Super Combat Commander]

I like the FBI cant.I seem to draw the gun quicker and the holster is more comfortable to me.

 

[Rosco Benson]

Master holstermaker Lou Alessi hit the nail on the head with his earlier post on the degree of cant having to be increased the farther back the holster is worn.

One advantage of a straight drop holster is that it permits one to obtain one's initial grasp on the pistol without "breaking" one's wrist downward. Straight-drop does pretty much require that the holster be worn directly on one's side and it can be less accessable when seated.

Rosco

 

[Tom Freeman]

I tried a FBI cant holster for IDPA and didn’t care for it.

For me drawing the gun straight up is more natural than pulling it forward to get it out of the holster. I see a lot of IDPA shooters lean forward when they draw from a canted holster. Maybe to make it easier to draw? Hell, I don’t know. It just looks unnatural and slower to me.

Once you get it out of the holster you have to stop the ass end of the gun and rotate it forward. Before you get that done, you might be covering yourself. If you Donnie Dumbass the draw and knock off your safety early, bad things can happen. I would much rather AD in the dirt than in my thigh.

Being an IPSC to IDPA convert, a straight drop holster will be easier to get used to.

This is for the game called IDPA. Not for real carry. For real carry/concealment, I think the cant helps with concealment. And yes, I do carry a gun concealed everyday. Just not on base.

If I offended anyone by saying IDPA is a game I am sorry, but I think it is and treat it as such. After all, the targets aren’t shooting back.

Tom
AF Shooting Team

 

[Shane1911]

On 2001-04-10 15:03, Oops! Fix me! wrote:
If I offended anyone by saying IDPA is a game I am sorry, but I think it is and treat it as such. After all, the targets aren’t shooting back.

I don't think any of us IDPA'ers are offended by your comment. We would have to be fools to think any different.

A serious game maybe, that MAY help in the real world, but a game non the less.

 

[Witherspoon]

I like to wear a gun just behind the side deam of my pants, which for me is comfortable, and concealable. It also provides for protection of the weapon using one's elbow.
Lou

Again Mr. Alessi shows great wisdom. I have been toting one of these things for 27 years, on duty and off, and it has always been a primary concern of mine to be able to protect it. I am not a competion shooter, so I can't address that point, but I think protection from being grabbed should be considered formost for your "carry" concerns.

 

[die]

Hi i agree with the previous tops that the straight drop is faster than the FBI cant. I believe that is because the movements you need for draw, are less and more natural than the ones you need for a draw from behind the hip with FBI cant (the best way, i think, to carry with this kind of holster).But is also thrue, that for certain individuals, like me, with short waistband and not to tall, is very dificult, near imposible, to conceal a handgun.
Also, i take the oportunity to ask, if the speed cut that certain designs have, are actually a plus, or nothing more than cosmetics.

 

[Blackjack]

I am truly interested in this topic because I am ignorant of the History and Refinement of the FBI Cant/Holster and sincerely seek first hand information.

I had always assumed the holster was set up that way by FBI instructors/advisors to facilate a fast draw in conjunction with a crouching motion.

The advantages to this seem to be a a very fast two hand presentation in conjunction with offering a moving target as you lower your profile by going into a crouching position as the sights come to bear.

I believe one would set up on the balls of your feet, left foot a bit forward, knees slightly bent, as you start the draw, you begun to bend the knees, this brings the head/eyes down to meet the sights as the pistol comes up and forward.

At least that`s the way I was instructed ( for Games )

I find it very fast. Am I all wet here ?

 

[Shane1911]

die,
Certain cants are faster for certain people. I can't be more specific than that. The only way to tell what is right for you is to grab your timer, and two types of holsters, and have at 'er.

My own timing has consistently proved time after time that my draw times are ALWAYS faster with the "FBI cant". An added bonus, as Lou mentioned, is weapon retention. My elbow meets the grip perfectly with this style holster.

Blackjack,
You are not all wet. The steps you outline are pretty close to the dynamics of an actual draw as practiced by FBI agents.

After trying different types of design and styles, it was the "FBI cant" that offered the best combination of concealment, retention, and speed.

 

[die]

Shane: you are right. What works for someone, not necessary work for another one. It just a matter of practice. About this, i recently read an article about the draw speed written by Duane Thomas in Gun World. In this one, he said that he doen't understand why persons insist in carry with the FBI cant. He gives some considerations about the advantages of the straight drop position. He mention a certain inestability when you actually present the handgun. For me is a little "overtecnique". By the way, what everybody in this forum think about these gun writers?

 

[Dane Burns]

Gun writers? Some are good guys some are dorks.

Duane Thomas commenting on holsters? I know Duane. I have shot with him some. He is the worst example of a gun writer IMO. Being published in any gun magazine or on a forum doesn't make what you have to say worth repeating :smile:

Question for any DT supporters on list? Why did DT loose his Washigton State armed guards license? The first and only license revocation in the history of the Washington program BTW.

Yes, I know DT. :roll:

As far as why anyone would carry in FBI? It's easy. It conceals better. Works if you have to draw seated or in an automobile better. It can be just as fast as any rig. It is not as easy. Ask Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce, or I dare say the old foggies on list like Higgibotham, Given's or myself. I am sure there are others. The first two are dead but we three amigos aren't quite yet and can throw a fairly quick leather slap from a FBI rig when called upon. :grin:



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-04-16 18:07 ]</font>

 

[buzz_knox]

Dane, say it ain't so. You're disparaging a gun writer. Everything I ever learned, I learned from them. I learned that the ultimate carry gun was the M29 .44 Mag. No, it was the Sig 226. No, wait, it was the M13, no, the Sig 228, no, the Glock 19, no the 225, no 4586, no the 1911. Agggh, the inconsistencies caused by needing new articles!

By the way, Dane. Feel free to e-mail the info about the license revocation, as well as any other tidbits. Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[Dane Burns]

Better yet I'll start a writers Q&A in the off topic section :grin:

 

[Bill Go]

Gentlemen, thank you one and all for the comments. I was undecided for a while about holster cant; there were well respected experts on both sides of the straight drop vs FBI cant debate. Bruce Nelson wore a straight drop (but I don't know if concealment was a concern of his). Ross Seyfried won the first IPSC World Shoot with s Sparks 1AT (FBI cant). We have heard from Dane, Lou Alessi, et al. In addition, I concluded from my own trials that if the weapon is carried behind the trouser seam, then the FBI cant is the most comfortable way to grasp the gun without an unnatural bend of the wrist. If one insists on open carry, then I could see using a straight drop (that's how I used to carry my IPSC gun). But now my local IDPA club runs most of its events requiring concealment (gun behind the hip). That decided me on the FBI cant.
Bill Go

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Bill Go on 2001-04-16 19:20 ]</font>

 

[Dane Burns]

Bill
You might be interested to know that Bruce Nelson generally carried a LTW Commander IWB in the strong side appendix position for concealment and speed. Not an uncommon position for "street" people for the same reason.

The Nelson Professional holster was designed for both point of hip draw and cross draw.

Ross not only won the Worlds with that AT1 but also the shoot off, man against man, with a 5" gun at the beginnings of the race gun era. All that more impressive to me.

Jelly Bryce and Bill Jordan were some of the fastest men in the world...on timers and against human opponents. ( presentations under .75 of a second concealed, Jordan was under .5!) They both prefered the FBI cant. As mentioned earlier it also allows for some protection of the gun in a schuffle and easier access to the gun in poor body positions, not to mention the aid in concealabiltiy.

 

[die]

Dane, after all that process to choose a weapon for his job, the right holster, the right, the right, etc., he was stripped form the license. I can't believe. Seriously, i remember his article from Gun World, in wich he write 5 or 6 pages about his new job. I wasn't any serious for me, but, everyone can do what he want. I don't consider him a good shooter, considering the data he publish from his test, and everything here confirm this. Well, i don't need more confirmations than reading his articles. Topic close.
Besides, i want to say that, regardless what i think about wich method is faster, i only carry mi guns behind the hip with FBI cant (IWB or FBI).