[rolexman]

I currently applied for a permit to carry based on my work... I load vault cash for privately owned ATM machines (that armored cars will not deliver to)...

I know there is a lot of knoweledge on this board, some of you i understand even have self defense classes..
My question is... what type of holster would you prefer given these circumstances:

you may potentially be a target while in your car seated...
or while walking with one hand occupied.
also currently i have a 1911 45 full size , beretta 92 and a PPKS
what gun best suits these circumstances(i think i prefer the 45)

i have been thinking about a shoulder harness, but i also have a FBI cant right waist holster coming for my 45..
i am big about 6'2'' 52 inch chest, 38 waist... so i think i may be able to hide the print of the shoulder harness on a 45...though concealment is not a concern (which raises another question) should i be concerned about concealment...do i want to appear armed or not..

thanks for any input..
ps. anyone know of any good self defense programs in or around NJ...

 

[Dane Burns]

If this were MY job the first thing for gear IMO would be a backup man looking out for me. Then some serious training and a concealed handgun. In similar circumstances I have always used a IWB of very fast and very good retention design, the GWH by Alessi.

It is a FBI raked rig and usable in a car but like I said, training is the issue IMO.

A 1911 is a great gun but I would make my backup gun a high cap 9mm. You are counting on two right? Nothing worse than having post ammo depression.

No reason IMO to make yourself a target by open carry. That would just tell me how hard I would have to hit you to get what I wanted. You have a gun that shows that means I have to be willing and able to kill you to get the cash. I would rather make ID a little more difficult and keep "them" guessing what else I have.

 

[rolexman]

Post ammo depression, i like that...very funny, but like most things in life funny because it's true...

in the past protection was not a concern, now i have larger locations in shadier areas.. nightclubs etc.. i use common sense, i load during the weekdays, early...not to mention we are still not talking about serious cash, but most LE people know that doesn't matter to some of these whacko's they take a shot for a pair of sneakers, i agree on concealment, i dress very conservative, banker like..not flashy.i don't keep a schedule, i show up on random days and times...my concern is not a planned attack, i'm concerned about crime of opportunity...someone sees me, recognizes i am the guy etc...then what am i wishing i had on me...i like that back up berreta idea, i might invest in a shoulder system for that...though i feel like i'm going to look like the terminator...my intention is to keep the neighbor hood banker look...

anyone ever have to draw from a right side waist FBi cant..does the seatbelt get in the way... etc...what's the best scenario for seated defense..i saw a seatbelt holster attaches across your chest, anyone ever see that..

 

[Dane Burns]

There is a bit more to drawing from a seated position than the holsetr design. Nice to have the gun with you when you leave the car too. The "car" holsters are designed to be used only in the car, not much help if you are getting in and out IMO. The thing that you aren't going to get from this list or any other is the training you need to assess your situation properly. Lots of problems if you want to hold on to the cash and use a gun at the same time. REAL problems with gun retention and a shoulder holster or a cross draw. Targets of opportunity and definative targets are an issue if you do this all the time at likely spots that may either ID you from repetiton or from your job.

There are several guys on this list that actually do similar things and have lots of training and lots of experience. Maybe they'll chime in.

 

[LW McVay]

Dane is absolutely right. A second guy there acting as your backup/lookout is worth 3 extra guns IMO.

I love the GWH/ACP rigs put out by Alessi for Dane. But as good as they are, they don't substitute for that second set of eyes that a good backup man provides.

 

[Citizen_Gilmore]

I agree with everything Mr. Burns said.. Training is more important than what or how you carry.. Go over all the scenerios you can come up with, and train with your specific needs in mind.. Being observant can get keep you out of a large percentage of undesirable situations.. -Gilmore

 

[Shay]

As a very important lesson, I used to put the gun in a "carholster" actually it was the slot where the safety belt comes out of the bench. One day the SHTF and I was out of the car w/o my gun! I work allot in cars and I have learned what works for me, I don’t go to cross draw or shoulder rigs because I like to go for my gun from one place only (strong side) and that’s where my hand will automatically go to when I need a gun.
I am currently carrying in a GWH but have used nothing but IWB holsters for the last 13 years. I have found that if you position them a little forward when in the car it is easy to get to them fast with a little practice. Remember when getting seated in the car to free your concealment or getting to your gun can be a bitch if you're sitting on the tail of your shirt or jacket.
If you don’t have an IWB holster yet, get the GWH. It is with out question the best available today.
Hope this helps a bit,
Shay

 

[JM]

I would invest in some good body armor. I recommend Second Chance.

 

[Secmat]

Yup. Body armor, good training, backup, situational awareness, and a good shoulder holster for your SECOND gun.

 

[rolexman]

maybe i can get an abrahms M1 tank to roll up to my locations in...
jeez, thanks for the info guys..a vest was something i hadn't even considered but probably makes the most sense.

 

[Ed Brunner]

Dane Burns has the right idea. A good back-up is a BHP with 18 rounds of 124 gr Hydra-Shok

 

[Chris Oslin]

Well, let's see here...

A backup man/extra set of eyes - This is a good thing. Big bore primary and high capacity backup gun - I like that, too. Body armor - damn good idea. Extensive training - a must.

Shoulder rig...with a 52" chest? No way in hell. Even when I am "thin" for my frame, I am still barrel chested, and shoulder rigs are a no-no. It is just too difficult to get to the gun, then get a proper grip on a gun in a shoulder rig if your chest is bigger than double your sleeve length. (Some may argue that it depends on vertical or horizontal carry, but really, it doesn't matter.)

I have always used an ankle gun when spending hours to days at a time seated in the car. My Glock 26 has worked wonders there - I just pull up my pants leg and leave the rig wrapped OUTSIDE of my trousers until exiting the car, (then I tuck the holster inside my pants leg before exiting) While in the car, the gun is readily accesible, and no one OUTSIDE of the car can tell. Seat belt holsters are OK, but then you have to move your gun from one holster to another as you exit the vehicle, and as mentioned before, one could forget the gun, holster incorrectly, etc.

A strong side holster would work well, but in addition to rocking the gun butt forward a little while seated, you must remember to ALWAYS lean forward when attempting to draw from a seated position. Steering wheels can be a problem when doing this, especially if you have a big chest/abdomen/gut, etc. This takes PRACTICE.

Tom Marx from Uncle Mike's teaches a class in holsters and drawing from unorthodox positions. If you ever get a chance to take his class, you would be doing yourself a favor.

_________________
Chris/Oz - IDPA# AO9766 "You can't miss fast enough to win the gunfight." - Ross Seyfried

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Oslin on 2001-05-21 01:12 ]</font>

 

[RAD]

Holster preference for self-defense?

Man I'd hate to have to defend myself with a holster. :smile:

 

[rolexman]

you're a funny guy RAD...
how long did it take you to come up with those ditty's..

must be all that bumper to bumper traffic you boys in LA are stuck in, giving you plenty of time to think...

either that or just sitting around in the dark with out electricity..
:grin:

 

[GLV]

There is an old military saying "It all depends on the terrain"

You need to do a risk assessment for each of the locations you service. If no backup is in the cards, Get extensive training in lethal threat management. Vest would be necessary, along with a great deal of firearms tactics training.

Will your company back you up if you are in a shooting? Would you shoot to avoid loss of the money? Are you willing to take the life of another person? Do you understand that while you could clear the shooting in criminal court, that a civil trial
might be in the offing?

Manner of dress should mirror the areas where you work. Vehicle again should be common, not something that stands out.

This post could go on forever. Suggest you ask specific questions, good luck, GLV

 

[rolexman]

all great questions,

i feel i received a lot of info from everyone's post, my original intent was to see what people in a similar situation would use to carry their protection.

Training is first on my list, thinking about com tech in PA, looks like a decent program, one and two day classes to start. a vest, secondly, and third my colt, when and IF i get the permit.

as far as the other questions, it's not something i have trained for... would i be willing to shoot someone who was trying to kill me, (like a planned attack) yes, without hesitation... someone who just wanted the money, spur of the moment robery, that creates a whole other moral dilemna but, my money = my livlihood..so i probably would, (my opinion is if someone sticks you up at gun point, that there are certain consequences to those actions) these are things that i would have addressed in training scenario's, quite frankly i do not even know my rights there.....

let's assume someone does stick me up, and i have a permit to carry... if i shot and killed this person, would i be guilty of a crime or (worse, civil liability) (isn't it amazing in this day and age, that i even need to ask that question)... chances are the loser family members of some perp, would sue me for wrongful death right?? so do i let someone rob me of 5 to 10 K or do i defend myself and get sued for millions.. brutal isn't it???



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: rolexman on 2001-05-23 23:00 ]</font>

 

[Rob Garrett]

Ditto on training, the G-26 in an ankle rig and a 1911 strong side. I also carry a spare G-26 mag in my left front pants pocket every day. Also second the idea of body armor.

A #2 person watching you back is a must. An 18" 870 with 00 buck and a Surefire fore end is also a good idea.

Consider OC spray to get you out of situations where deadly force is not an option. Drunks etc.

While in the vehicle, I would consider having a pistol within easy reach to get you out of trouble. Laying on the seat next to you concealed by a magazine (paper) or something. This does not take the place of the carry guns. Granted, if you get rammed, as in HEAT, the gun is gone but you still have the belt and ankle pieces.

IF you have to draw from a seated vehicle, remember to sweep the muzzle of the pistol around the outside of the steering wheel. A straight up presentation may catch the muzzle on the rim and result in an AD/UD. See the Thunder Ranch site for some photos of what Clint teaches.

All that said, and maybe done, situational awareness and avoidance is the first rule of the day. Pass on a location if it does not "look" or "feel" right and come back later. Remember the first rule of law enforcement - at the end of the shift, you go home. ("Malone" Sean Connery - The Untouchables)

_________________
"Fifteen million isn't money. It's a motive with a universal adapter on it."
James Caan
"Way of the Gun"

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Rob Garrett on 2001-05-25 09:27 ]</font>

 

[Duke Hansen]

Rolexman: I recommend the training too....www.thunderranchinc.com for their 3 day Vehicle Defense course. The High Risk Personnel course at http://www.StormMountain.com is what I attended last year and it was phenomenal!! Please look into those and enjoy the training......Keith