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even a 12 ga loaoded with bird shot from 10 to 30ft away will make an intruder drop and realize he's made a bad mistake. while pheasant hunting when i was 14 i got hit with a few pellets from a 12 ga accidendly by an unsafe hunter. they burned like hell and a tetanus shot ensued after they were removed
 
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I keep 6 shells of 12 guage game load in my Remington 870 for just such occasions. Anyone dumb enough to not shite their pants and surrender after I rack one into the chamber may earn a good perforating.
 

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Any shotgun with an empty chamber is just a club....unless You had some of the rifle/bayonet trainin' We got before the Army went to the M16 it is not a very good club compared to a Loooieville Slugger.

Most punks can sprint 21 feet in a second....Can You rack one in the barrel and get a shot off if the punk starts first, what about 10 feet?.....I'm a firm beleiver in keepin' all the odds on My side....Usein' BUCKSHOT is another advantage I won't give up. Dead punks sue for a lot less money than a poor disavantaged blind undie.

If the punk has a sheetrock wall to get behind it will take two or more rounds of game loads to get to him....Buckshot doesn't get thru 3/4 in. plywood very easy.......SLUGS MAY BE THE WAY TO GO.....After sundown one of the super bright flashlights along with the firearm can up the odds in My favor dependin'

Bill Caldwell
 
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I never said the chamber was empty. I'd rather they flee for their lives than hafta shoot. I can spare one good round on the floor. Given the media's desire to witch hunt anyone who does a legitimate self defense shooting I'd prefer to avoid it if I can, but if it comes down to their life or my own I choose me.
 

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I'll agree that the 12ga. is the way to go! I've got several options available when something goes "bump in the night". But, every time it did, I bypassed everything else and grabbed the 870! Time permissible, I'd also shove the Glock in the waistband. However, there are several things to consider.

Ammunition is one. I saw a test and read a bunch more about penetration and performance of buckshot and slugs back in the early 90s'. I didn't really believe it and performed the same type of test and even added a bunch. Buckshot is NOT a penetrating round. It will go through sheetrock, but plywood, brick, thick paneling and such will seriously slow it down. The 1oz. slug......GOES THROUGH A LOT! A slug isn't what I'd want inside the house. Birdshot? Buckshot? Any of these inside of 10 feet might as well be a 1oz. slug. Shot hasn't had time to spread and will be together. These test indicated that one certain type of buckshot WOULD penetrate more than any other. I found that to be pretty true and use the load today. Federal 2 3/4 in. Copper Plated Magnum. NOT the 3 in. Same amount of powder, but pushing 12 instead of 9 pellets. Guess that is the reason. The 2 3/4 load WOULD penetrate a vehicle door with enough energy to neutralize a target inside. Same test, a 1 oz. slug would neutralize a target on the OTHER SIDE OF THE VEHICLE.....after passing through both doors! You decide what is best for your environment.

Next....status of the weapon. Mine is LOADED! If I need it, I don't want to have to do anything to get it into action. However, as KainThornn stated, there is another side to this coin. The shotgun is also a very good psychological tool. There is no mistaking the sound of a round being "racked" into the chamber. However, if I were going to rely on that, I'd keep the chamber empty, with the hammer down-meaning that I'd snapped the trigger on the empty chamber. This would set the shotgun up with the hammer down on empty chamber, thereby releasing the bolt/slide making it very simple for me to then "rack" and chamber a round really quick. But, I'd prefer to have mine loaded......and rely on verbal skills to make them leave...if they were so inclined. If not? They'd have serious problems. I'll handle the media later....while I'm still breathing.

Next.....no matter what weapon system you choose, you need a good light. Preferably, mounted ON the weapon. I've worked with several techniques and having it on the weapon is simply too handy....and it is always there when you need it. Unless you were awakened by the loud sound of gunfire....KNEW you were the only resident in the house....KNEW you were the only one living there....KNEW nobody else was suppose to be there......KNEW accountability of all persons inside the residence.....KNEW, KNEW, KNEW!!!!
Then you've got to go by a simple rule. S.E.E. See, Evaluate, Eliminate. Quite simple rule.
See-you see something/someone that you know is out of place.
Evaluate-you've seen it, now is it a threat or not?
Eliminate-if you determine that it is a threat, engage until the threat is eliminated.
This is where a really good, bright light is quite handy. I'm not fond of making "sound shots" (as they have been called in the past) shooting at "noise" in the dark. Ain't no tellin' what I'd be shooting at! And.....a really powerful light is also a psychological tool. It is very hard for the "bad guy" to tell anything about you with a blinding light in his eyes! Bottom line....you have to see the threat to engage it for the most part. I'd hate to make a "sound shot" and find out it was my son's buddy trying to sneak over to play video games. Imagine what the media would do with that. Imagine what that would do to you..........

Another consideration....probably should be the very first thing you do consider......PLAN!!! Have a plan. The "what if". Find your angles. Know your safe areas. If you have a family, plan and then do some drills. This is extremely important. Your life and the lives of your family may depend on it. Decide if you have the tactical advantage by staying where you are or if it would be better to move. These are things most folks never think about....until it is too late. I can almost clear my house with my eyes closed. I've done it quite enough times that I'm quite familiar with all the angles. I know where my problem spots are and where I have the advantage. Quite important when a family is present.....what to do if "this" or "that" happens. Always have more than one option. Make sure everybody knows what to do and what NOT to do. The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask ....and plan for.

This is not a complete guide to "Home Defense". But, I'd consider this a very good starting point. Something to continue building on...........
 
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Good point about shotgun shells and penetration, mine is the 870 Express Tactical, short barrelled for semi CQB. There's only one other person authorized to be in the house and she'll be awakened and under the bed behind me in the event I need to scan the house.
 

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Self-defense in NY

TT....You are a wise man! I like the way you think:eek: , but a Shotgun in a house seems like OVERKILL to me...I like the Bright Light...BUT I don't want to hit my dogs with stray pellets...I know you have seen that one or two weird pellets that go nowhere where you pointed that 780 or any other shotgun, just a mater of hitting each other on the way out the tube....I've shot at the range many times with many different revolvers and pistols any never missed hitting the target...maybe not a bullseye but always on the target...so thats the way I want to go 1 projectile at a time...aimed at the center of whats in the light.:rolleyes:

and I still have my Louisville slugger and my2 attack Jack Russells:D
 

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A load of #6s in a house will do...but ya really gotta get mad dog mean. Forget center of mass. Shoot for the face or the groin. I know some tough men. Real, world-class badass hombres...but I don't think any of'em will keep comin' after their package is shredded.
 

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Bright light

IF I were a BAD guy and I was armed...my first shot would go into that light, hit the floor and fire towards that light (or where it was) again. BAD GUYS don't care about collateral damage....who knows I might be wrong, but the Bad Guy wants something bad enough to come into your house, so who knows what he's thinking, carrying or under the influence of besides stupidity! IMHO
 

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Jmazz I too have never been a fan of lights on pistols because as you say my first instinct is to shoot at the light and continue shooting at the light. If I have a light on my gun and I'm holding as I would hold it to aim that would mean the shots aimed the light would be aimed at my head. :(

At home distances are short enough that you won't get much spread from buck shot. I wouldn't consider anything other than 00buck for home defense. I don't want to give the bad guy the advantage of using sheet rock or heavy leather jackets as hard cover from bird shot. Remember it's not about making them bad guy say ouch it's about stopping him before he can stop you and bird shot doesn't get the job done.
 

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Oh, a charge of #6s from a 12 gauge...in the face or groin across a room...will use ya up like right now. Back in the 70s, an aquaintance was shot center chest with a load of #8s from a 20 gauge at 15 feet. He hit the floor...gurgled for a few seconds...and was graveyard dead shortly after. Witnesses said that he never moved after he was shot.

Never mind the sheetrock. Inside a house, with other people in parts unknown...we don't fire through walls. Instead, we ensconce and ambush when the BG rounds the corner or comes through the door.

I like buckshot, but like anything else...it has its place. Inside my house, with the familia and the furkids scattered all over...it just ain't the place for it. Not for me, anyway. I keep my coach gun stoked with high-brass, 2 and 3/4 inch #4s, along with a Model 10 loaded with standard pressure 158-grain LSWCs. If that combo won't do the trick, I'm likely at the point that only the will of God will help me.
 

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Never mind the sheetrock. Inside a house, with other people in parts unknown...we don't fire through walls. Instead, we ensconce and ambush when the BG rounds the corner or comes through the door.
Ahh, sir that is the mindset everyone should have! Well said.

Even as a police officer we do not go clearing buildings alone. Even ones we know the layout off. Neither does the military. Every civilian should have a safe room planned out that all family members can be gathered to and one single entry point can be protected against. All this done while someone is on the phone with 911 actively engagaing the dispatcher the entire time. Wait for cavalry if possible. In my home, my family is in the master bathroom and my wife is on 911 and protecting that fall back doorway while I am protecting the single main doorway from behind cover of the bed and dresser. "ENSCONSED DEFENSE" AS JOHNNYT SAID.

If you go clearing, do you know your enemy? Their strength? Numbers?Location(s)? Armament? Once you are away from your loved ones you have split their targets. They can just as easily get to family members as you.

I also feel a shotty is only good in this situation. Where it is deployed and stationary. Once it is carried it becomes to long and umwieldy. A handgun is a much better selection in hallways, doorways etc.
 

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I totally agree I would not go clearing a house nor would I start shooting aimlessly through walls hoping to hit my target. My point is if it comes down to shooting and the bad guy is shooting at me I don't want him to use sheetrock as hard cover.
 

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I think that many people give the average home invasion gangstas far too much credit. We're not usually dealing with well disciplined and highly motivated people. Deck one of'em, and when the others see their pard squirmin' around, pukin' blood and whatever he had for lunch...screamin' for mommy and talkin' to the Almighty like a Baptist preacher at a revival...the rest of the team will head for the nearest exit and leave their homeboy to whatever fate has in store for him. They might fling a few shots over their shoulders as they go...but it's not highly likely that they'll take cover and return fire. The biggest danger is when they get outside and decide to light up the whole house as they leave.

Now, if your invader is a Seal team that has orders to terminate with prejudice...you're dead no matter what you do.
 

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I think that many people give the average home invasion gangstas far too much credit. We're not usually dealing with well disciplined and highly motivated people. Deck one of'em, and when the others see their pard squirmin' around, pukin' blood and whatever he had for lunch...screamin' for mommy and talkin' to the Almighty like a Baptist preacher at a revival...the rest of the team will head for the nearest exit and leave their homeboy to whatever fate has in store for him. They might fling a few shots over their shoulders as they go...but it's not highly likely that they'll take cover and return fire. The biggest danger is when they get outside and decide to light up the whole house as they leave.

Now, if your invader is a Seal team that has orders to terminate with prejudice...you're dead no matter what you do.

I can disagree here. In my area where I see crimes first hand there have been many with 2-3 hard core criminals doing home invasions. One instance a family of 4 was slaughtered because the 3 dirtbags cruised a middle class neighbourhood on a sunday morning until they found a house with an open front door and children playing. All were armed, the whole family was killed. Wife and 6 year old daughter raped before. If you think that hangin your hat on the presence of a shotgun or the sound or it racking, or just the shooting of one you are wrong. Evil is out there, these men don't care. Don't have fear. Not afraid of dying either.
 

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Sarge405 I totally agree with you. Sometimes we think that if we "hurt" them they will automatically stop and run away. Many times I've see posts like "it would hurt so much the bad guy would have to stop". Exchanging gun fire with someone who wants to kill you is not about making them say ouch it's about stopping them as soon as possible.
 

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And did this armed family shoot any of the bad guys?

The "rest" of the story is missing also. Was it a drug hit? Revenge hit? Something made them determined to slaughter everybody in the house. That isn't the usual MO
of a gangsta strike team lookin' to fund Christmas in the hood.
 

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Ok, another example for you. Last nights shift. Home 3 armed men knock on a door, man answers, they beat him unconscious and ransack his house. 10 blocks from mine!!
It's not about using any gun as a visual deterrent. You best be prepared to go all the way. Don' t count on criminals running away scared because of the sight of you and your big bad gun.

I'm not here to argue. Just present an alternate opinion. Take it or leave it.
 

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Sarge...Like you and wrinkles...I've always maintained gun shouldn't be relied on as a visual deterrent, even though they have been many times. I've never said that the presence of a gun is a guaranteed means to keep an attack from happening..or even a probability. I said that shooting one of the turds is the way to send the message that their victory will come at a high price.

Most aren't willing to pay it unless there's something else at the root of it. An ordered or contracted hit most often means that the killer will press the attack even after his team has taken casualties...not the pissant entry team taking a target of opportunity.

Remember DeNiro's line in the Untouchables?

"I want him dead! I want his family dead! I want his house burned to the ground!"

These are the situations that we fear most. Best advice is not to piss off bad people.
 

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Most aren't willing to pay it unless there's something else at the root of it. An ordered or contracted hit most often means that the killer will press the attack even after his team has taken casualties...not the pissant entry team taking a target of opportunity.
And we can agree to disagree. I see it everyday. The general scumbags who are willing to take it to the death over a tv, stereo or drugs. Get 2 or 3 together and they feed off each other. It isn't like the movies or tv.

I say no more on this.
 
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