You listed several things that you spent money on, except what seems to me to be the most important in learning to shoot a weapons system: Training.
For example, for years my agency has issued Steyr Aug-P rifles for duty. For years I refused to carry the gun, opting for an 870 or an MP-5 for long gun carry. I felt the gun was clumsy, unusual, etc. I was sent to a firearms instructor's advanced training camp a few years back, and I was told that if I wanted to take the abbreviated Urban Rifle course by Thunder Ranch, I had to use the issued AUG.
Reluctantly, a co-worker and I took our AUGS, and we learned the weapon like our agency could never have taught us, and our guns ran like sewing machines, shooting like we were experts!
Just food for thought - every gun has its quirks, but I am sure that the Glocks you have could be unloaded to a willing buyer without much effort.
Chris/Oz - IDPA# AO9766 "You can't miss fast enough to win the gunfight." - Ross Seyfried
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chris Oslin on 2001-04-16 00:36 ]</font>
Went through the FBI academy with a 99.5 % (missed 6 points of 1200 - 3 rounds) performance on the firearms QC using a Glock 22. They even encouraged me to pursue firearms instructor certification as I had all the makings of an excellent instructor.
I have received training elsewhere and have won several pistol matches with Glocks of all calibers.
No matter the additional training I may receive, there is nothing that is going to convince me that a Glock is worth half of the hype it receives. In my opinion, it is a second rate weapon.
It seems you can shoot a Glock well. This does not mean you have to like/love them. I would be interested in hearing what you don't like about them. They aren't warm, pretty, and sexy. They do run and run and run. I dearly love the 1911 platform and the .45 caliber. Yet I have to admit that a 1911 won't take half the abuse as the Glocks do.
I consider them more as a tool. I half agree with you, I don't love them like my Baer Premier II but I do like the fact that I don't worry about it getting wet and dirty and I know it will work when I need it to.
The 99.5 was overall qualification score with Shotgun, MP5, and Glock 22. The Glock 22 was actually 2 misses or 99.3% of 600. Sorry for the incorrect numbers. My only other miss was with the MP5.
In any case, I was never able to shoot the PQC with any gun other than the Glock 22 but I definately shoot the 1911 better in competitive events as well as general shooting.
Some of the things I do NOT like about the glock:
1 Magazines. They do not always "drop free" especially in the finger groove models. When you need to reload quickly, you shouldn't have to look to make sure your magazine has actually fallen from the frame. I think much of this mag stickiness is due to some tolerance changes in the new design as well as some warpage/flexing of the grip section. The polymer material aroung the mag catch notch deforms and also provides opportunity for mags to stick. It is quite a chore to get the thing apart. The polymer on polymer also seems to have more friction than metal on metal. A serious combat weapon should have metal magazines and mag catches. This could easily be solved by placing a metal lining in the mag well rather than. The space you take in the frame could be saved on the thickness of the magazine.
2. Trigger. Although I have "learned" to "master" the glock trigger - one shouldn't have to "master" a trigger or "remaster" a trigger after going back and forth between weapons. The combination of the odd grip angle and the unique trigger pull require special techniques to get center hits consistently. I do NOT have this problem switching from Beretta to Sig to 1911.
3. Limpwristing and other assorted jams. I lump this in the category with triggers as the Glock requiring "special" techniques to operate. I have had significant trouble with Glocks jamming especially in calibers OTHER than 9mm. In real life, you may not always get your arms into a perfectly locked position. I think the combination of light/flexing frame and fairly heavy recoil springs contribute to the problem. I would say the Beretta and Sig come much closer to "perfection" in the area of feeding. The right 1911 will feed just as good as a Glock. Don't let anyone fool you into believing that Glocks are 100% reliable. Reliability is best with Beretta in my experience with the other three roughly second.
4. We had the luxury of being issued guns with Trijicon sites. STock Glock sights have no place on a combat weapon.
5. Ergonomics. I have already mentioned the odd grip angle. On top of that, the slide and frame are too BLOCKY. The trigger guard is about three times too big. It may be lighter but I find that a full size 1911 will conceal just as easily.
They do have a good reputation for being durable and I will give them that (even though the locking block in my issue gun went at about 2500 rounds and I have had more than 1 extractor failure on the model 21). Durability is important BUT as long as you maintain your weapon and your don't go into a 4000 round extended firefight - the Glock's durability is much less of an issue.
I am not going to go as far as to say they are trash but I would definately choose a 1911, Sig, Beretta, in that order, over a Glock. I think there are a lot of good ideas present in the design but the only thing Glock has on the 1911 is mag capacity and on the Sig and Beretta is first trigger pull. I admit that much of this is subjective.
I think no single particular gun design is right for everyone. I can think of a few so far that I have found uncomfortable for me to shoot, even.
If Glock doesn't work for you, that's cool. But, let me address your points with my (very) limited experience on the same topics.
1. magazine not dropping free. i have never had this problem with either my old 2nd gen 19 or my new (finger grooves of course) 26.
2. I don't know what special techniques are required, but i'd like to know. my previous shooting experience was nil, so maybe it was just easier for me to "learn the trigger" as you say? I dunno. of course i don't shoot as well as you do, but i'm not bad for a woman who's only begun in the past year.
3. Limpwristing and other assorted jams. This was only a problem the first two mags i shot from my 19. not any more and never with the 26.
4. Trijicon... i have them on the 19. I have stock on the 26 at the moment. in daylight the stock are easier for me to use. in the dark, well, that's pretty obvious, isn't it? Are stock glock sights worse than other handguns' stock sights? does it matter? i mean so you need to replace the sights on your Glock... that's better than how much you'll have to spend to get some 1911s all tricked out to your satisfaction, isn't it? :smile:
5. Ergonomics. I find that it fits me. I have tried other guns. In fact, i like to shoot anything anyone will let me try, just to get the experience. But i find the Glock 19 and 26 work well for me.
My point: The "fit" and "feel" of a handgun is a very personal thing. One size (or brand) does not fit all. That's part of what makes life interesting, isn't it?
As a relatively new shooter, I have found the glock easy to learn to shoot and to clean, etc. I love my glocks. But, of course, you don't have to love them.
It is intersesting to hear of different peoples experinces.
We can only comment on our own experinces.
Having been issued, and owning 1911s (and liking them) Sig (really like), Berettas(dont like issued or owned), Smiths(like), and Glocks, I would pickup any of them as first come to defend myself. If having given time for thought and selection I would opt for any Glock. That is from my experince in and out of the military, on and off range, what few matches I have shot in or observed.
Differences is what makes the world interesting. Ginnger or Mary Ann eh?
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: shootingbuff on 2001-04-18 19:44 ]</font>
If I could ask Gaston one question, it would be: WTF is up with that trigger????
I own Glocks, have carried them, hunted with them, shot competition with them, but never fell in love with them. Give me a 1911, a Sig, Beretta or Browning, and in short order I feel very comfortable with a strangers gun. Give me a Glock that I own, have fired 5,000+ rounds through it...and I still find myself looking at it, wondering WTF is up with that trigger.
Bruce, that trigger does seem a bit akward, but my main beef is with that silly hump on the backstrap, and the grip angle. If Glock made a gun with the grip shape/backstrap of a 1911, I'd buy one in a heartbeat. Otherwise, I'm saving every penny I have to put into my 1911's.
Well, saving your pennies might be a good idea, because many people often do just that to get a 1911 that is as dependable as a stock Glock. Personally, I don't think that a reliable 1911 is worth 2 or 3 Glocks, but often they cost that much!
There is no "one gun" for everyone, but I know that when my agency was forced to go to the One Gun Fits All policy, and that gun was the Glock, our overall scores rose 15%, the malfunctions became almost nil, and no one seemed to mind carrying it. Each of these factors is a far cry from the previously issued S&W 6906.
James, if you don't like the Glock, that's OK, but the reasons you delineated previously all seem to be rather personal and up for debate. Just let me know what Glocks you have and how much you want for them, and I will contact a friend of mine who is in the market and pass along the info.
I've had drop-free problems with my fingergroove 19 that i don't have with my NFG 19. Next step is to take some 600 grit sandpaper and smooth/thin the mag sides a bit. This has worked for me.
I love my 19, because it may be THE most reliable Glock, which is saying a lot. Durable, relatively (compared to 1911's) inexpensive, lightwt, and easy to service. Neither Sig or Beretta has the # of armorers nationwide if something needs real work, though I love the feel of the Sig. Maybe if it were a dept. gun, and the dept. armorer kept it running, I'd like the Sig. They're in no way as durable, round for round, as the Glock, imo. Can you predict when something will break? I'd rather it be on round 50,000 than 5,000.
I love the 1911. I have room in my heart for both, and my waistband too! If I had to carry a duty-sized gun other than the 1911, unconcealed, it would probably be the Beretta Elite, but if I'm gonna carry concealed a 36oz+ gun, it will be a 1911. Otherwise, if weight matters and the weather sucks, the G19 gets the nod. I don't shoot it as well as I do the 1911, but I do well enough, and feel confident with it. My 2 cents. I'll keep both.
For a long time I swore one of those plastic pistols would never be in my home. I did that until I shot one. I have shot my Glocks better than any Sig, S&W, Ruger,and others. I have 5 Glock pistols (21,23,27,30, and 35). I don't have the rounds throught them like some others but through today I have almost 5000 rounds throught them (bought all 5 in the last year). Never had one jam! No, not even one!
Now I'm starting to get into the 1911 type pistol. I'm to the point of limiting my purchased to the Glock, 1911, or Browning HP.