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IDPA Championships......Is it really

5K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  John Forsyth 
#1 ·
How can the IDPA concider this to be a true championship match when they won't allow the shooters that won state and regional titles to participate? A suggestion was made to the board to have the winners of the state matches compete at a regional competition to earn their way to the nationals...they dismissed it by saying that they didn't want a championship that you have to earn.
 
#3 ·
On 2001-08-07 21:01, jm10mm wrote:
How can the IDPA concider this to be a true championship match when they won't allow the shooters that won state and regional titles to participate?
Who said they are not allowed in? They are, they just have to hope for a slot with all the other people who want in.

I can see your point, state winners move to a region, regionals move on to the Nats. But what about the average guy, who works hard, and for a living, and can not afford to travel to a multitude of intermediate matches? Shouldn't this person have a shot at it as well? I think so. I know someone like this and they won SSP SS at the Nats two years ago.

This year, IDPA said you had to have a major match under your belt before you could apply. Meaning a state or regional. That's why there were so many state championship matches in April and May of this year. To get qualified. They are working on it, but it is not a perfect system, especially when, like Mike said, 5000 people want in.

PS: I'm going.
 
#4 ·
You can't please everybody. Currently, IDPA require that a shooter must shoot in at least one state or regional level match to be eligible for the National. I remember this caused a lot of screaming that this will eventually lead to exclusivism (is this a word?). Some people (the same bunch that don't like the concept of area coordinators) don't even like the suggestion that past champions should be automatically allowed a slot, or that corporate sponsors should have a few slots. I doubt people will go for the automatic entry for the state or regional champions.
 
#6 ·
Right now the Nats is like a big state championship. Everybody knows everybody, it's friendly and fun. I hope it stays that way. I think it is that way because there are a lot of shooters who are just happy to be there, want to see how good they are, and do not really care if they win anything.

I think they need to let more people in. Last year at our stage, we could get a squad through in 20 min. We were anywhere from 40 min to an hour ahead at lunch and at the end of the day. If they had added 5 shooters per squad, at 8 squads a day, another 120 shooters could have gotten in.

One more thing, if you really want in, and you have it read it is full, just go to the match and see if a slot opens up because someone was a no show. I know at least one shooter who did that last year. If you do not get in, where else can you talk to Richard Heinie while you fondle one of his guns and dream.
 
#8 ·
I think it is between 300 and 350 counting SO's. Do not know for sure.
 
#9 ·
I think you guys missed my question a little bit. I will be at the Nationals I got accepted as an SO. I look forward to seeing you guys there.

your right is is more like a state match and not a national championship. If they set it up as a championship it would have tiers and would be earned.

Did Ernest,Rob,Todd,etc get passed over?--File that under NEVER. The only slots that are open are the left overs.

I don't disagree its a great bunch of guys getting together to have fun, its just not a national championship.
 
#10 ·
Did Ernest,Rob,Todd,etc get passed over?--File that under NEVER. The only slots that are open are the left overs.
Actually, Jarret (and Leatham IIRC) didn't get their applications in on time and missed the 1999 nationals.

I don't disagree its a great bunch of guys getting together to have fun, its just not a national championship.
It is a national championship. The national sanctioning body has determined this is the method in which the match will be run. Look at the Bianchi Cup, there are no lesser matches that determine ones acceptability to the main event, but there is no denying the Cup is the pinnacle of the shooting sports. Same for the Steel Challenge. No one is not going to say the winner isn't the "fastest gun" cause there were no state level steel challenges.

I suppose you hit a nerve with me here JM, this is the same statement made blindly by shooters from another dicipline when the feel they need to stick a barb in IDPA.

Ted Murphy

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ted Murphy on 2001-08-08 18:38 ]</font>
 
#11 ·
Tis the beauty of free speech, it get the people debating. Maybe they should have called it the "IDPA Cup" or the "National IDPA Challenge" but I'm sorry the word Championship denotes a meeting of Champions and again like Dennis Miller "That just my opinion I could be wrong"
 
#13 ·
Not to beat a dead horse but the Bianchi Cup is a national championship, in fact, it is the "NRA Action Pistol" Championship, they just have a cool name for it.

And the Steel Challenge is actually the "world speed shooting championships" Again, with no infrastructure to pick who goes. http://www.isishootists.com/steelchallenge/2001/app.htm for the application


Ted
 
#14 ·
I believe the IDPA now advertises this as a "National" Championship but they had it right in 98 when I went to my first one - the International Defensive Pistol Association Championship. With shooters from Japan and Europe, in addition to the ones from the US, this is an International Championship that happens to occur in the USA.

I shoot several State/Regional Championships each year and I pray along with everybody else that I get a slot at the Nationals. With the exception of the late entry by Rob in 99, I believe the best shooters in IDPA are usually represented at the Nats. It's the same ones that have been kickin my butt all year!

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing the winners of State and Regional Championship Divisions/Classes getting guaranteed slots (assuming they want them and pay up) and I think past Div/Class winners at the Nats should be allowed the opportunity to defend their titles, unless they got moved up. Truth is, most of these folks are there anyway.

I suggest that there be 2 entry deadlines. One for all the "qualified" State, Regional and past National winners and a few weeks later another "open run" for the remaining slots. I also personally think they should just go ahead and make it a 5 day event with a complete match each day. They could probably run 150 shooters each day and do the awards on Saturday night. THAT would be a rip-roarin good time!

Mikey
 
#15 ·
Mikey, thats the response I've been looking for. The Nationals sold out in 3 days last year and 1/2 day this year. IDPA needs to do something to allow more shooters to participate. Membership has soared along with the interest in matches. Maybe they could go to an all week match in 2 or 3 waves with awards at the end of the week. That would be a blast and on your off days you could network and party.

Ted,this is not sour grapes, I'm sorry if it sounds like it. Simply put the membership has grown an IDPA should address the problem to evolve as a major sport.
 
G
#17 ·
Being the negative and shooter unfriendly person that I am, I will throw in a few caveats about making the Nationals 'bigger'.

1) Although it is true in last year's Nationals, we ran shooters through at a pretty good clip, we were still running about 45 minutes per squad on my stage. We were quite happy about pushing them through that fast. The match only runs as fast as the slowest stage. In '99, my stage ran about 62 minutes per squad on the first day. We worked the shooters like dogs after that to get a squad through in 55 minutes. If we hadn't had a stage crew of 5 hard working SOs, it would have been tough for the match.

2) I have been at the Nats since 98 and we have been blessed with favorable weather. While it has been warm, there has been no inclement weather at any Nationals. Four drops of rain begins to slow any match down noticeably. With any noticeable amount of rain, the pace of a match will decrease by at least 50%. Those who were SOs at the Alabama State this year can remember that we struggled to get the SOs shot in one day on Friday. It is an absolute necessity to have excess capacity as a contigency for inclement weather. Otherwise you can have a situation of the match not finishing at all.

3) Staffing can get to be problematic the longer a match becomes. It is important to have the same people running a stage throughout a championship to ensure consistency of officiating. Getting 70+ people to volunteer for an entire week will probably be difficult. And the longer it runs, the more you need on a per stage basis to alleviate fatigue, both physical and mental.

4) The ability to use the facility for such a long length of time is an issue also. MISS is a very busy facility and might not be available for a longer period. Setup time adds to the time that the facility has to be available. The survey of other possible sites for the Nationals generated a lot of controversy last year because every other facility on the list was in a firearm repressive (Police) State.

I would like to see more shooters have the opportunity to shoot the Nationals, but I am not sure how feasible it is to increase the numbers.

Anyone who REALLY wants to shoot but didn't receive a slot for this year's Nationals could certainly shoot by volunteering to staff the event. :smile: Only one extra day and then you get to shoot and sleep for free. As far as I know, HQ has not turned away anyone who asked to work.

Claude
 
#19 ·
I have been at the Nats since 98 and we have been blessed with favorable weather. While it has been warm, there has been no inclement weather at any Nationals.
We have been very lucky. It rained real hard one night at the 2000 nats (blew all our targets down) but the next day the weather was good.

With any noticeable amount of rain, the pace of a match will decrease by at least 50%. Those who were SOs at the Alabama State this year can remember that we struggled to get the SOs shot in one day on Friday.
When the So's at the carolina cup shot that thursday we were practically washed away. It does slow down things
It is an absolute necessity to have excess capacity as a contigency for inclement weather. Otherwise you can have a situation of the match not finishing at all.
True. That is why sunday has been left open in the past.
Staffing can get to be problematic the longer a match becomes. It is important to have the same people running a stage throughout a championship to ensure consistency of officiating.
You would need to add an so or two to each stage so they could be given time off to doze under a sunshade, take a walk, etc. That would mean as many as 15 more SO' s would be needed (1 or 2 a bay) , a tall order indeed.
The ability to use the facility for such a long length of time is an issue also. MISS is a very busy facility and might not be available for a longer period. Setup time adds to the time that the facility has to be available.
IIRC we went it for the full week. Last year, I went in early and helped set up. We were almost ready to go Mon PM.
Had we there been a need for it, we might have been ready to start shooting tuesday.

I would like to see more shooters have the opportunity to shoot the Nationals, but I am not sure how feasible it is to increase the numbers.
I think we could add another day of shooting without upsetting things too much. That would add an extra 7-8 squads which could be 80+ more shooters.
Anyone who REALLY wants to shoot but didn't receive a slot for this year's Nationals could certainly shoot by volunteering to staff the event. :smile:
Quite True.

Ted Murphy


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ted Murphy on 2001-08-10 19:16 ]</font>
 
#20 ·
Now there are some great suggestions. See what happens when we use a site based management approach to a problem. The more minds you have solving a problem the easier it becomes. Especially when you ask the people in the trenches.
This is what I thought the forum was all about. Thanks.
 
#21 ·
On 2001-08-09 08:00, jm10mm wrote:
Mikey, thats the response I've been looking for. The Nationals sold out in 3 days last year and 1/2 day this year. IDPA needs to do something to allow more shooters to participate. Membership has soared along with the interest in matches. Maybe they could go to an all week match in 2 or 3 waves with awards at the end of the week. That would be a blast and on your off days you could network and party.

Ted,this is not sour grapes, I'm sorry if it sounds like it. Simply put the membership has grown an IDPA should address the problem to evolve as a major sport.
You changed your tune it seems. First you say it's not a championship because it's not a tiered structure which would reduce the number of shooters. Now you want it open so even more shooters can participate? You can't really have it both ways. It's no easy task organizing a match of this size. How about we let it grow at a normal pace instead of trying to inject it with steriods.... As it stands everyone has the same chance to get in. Can't please everyone. Which is painfully obvious.

This is my first Nats. I'm looking forward to the big match experience, shooting hanging with the gang.

Mark

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mayonaise on 2001-08-14 23:30 ]</font>
 
#22 ·
Once again the point was missed. There are no sour grapes and I didn't have a tune to change. The question was put out there to spark debate. I simply have stated that IDPA membership has gone from like 1000 shooters to 8000 shooters. Have the slots at the Nationals grown 8 times over. IDPA has to address the growth and somehow accomodate more shooters if they are to grow as an organization. An organizations growth depends on the involvement of its members,if you keep passing them by they may disappear.

IDPA is my venue of choice. I am not looking to destroy it. I and many others are looking for ways to keep it going. As a MD and SO I listen to what the shooters have to say. So thats why I say in order to evolve to the sport it can be it must listen to its membership and be willing to change when and if necessary.
 
#23 ·
This year I finished 2nd in my state match,won my regional match and won the IDPA Spring Nationals at Chapman. I sent in my app for the nats on June 1st but not knowing any better I didn't overnight it. I was told I could go on a waiting list for open slots but I wouldn't be notified until a day or two before the match.
I would have loved to shoot with the best to test my skills while I am on somewhat of a roll but it's not to be. I am disapointed but I will try next year. I agree that there should be reserve slots for major match winners.
 
#24 ·
There are slots available for SO's available I think. If you really want one, call HQ and verify. We would love to have you join us.
 
#25 ·
Let's see its not really a National Championship. Last time I looked it was declared by the BOD to be the IDPA 2001 Championship. SOunds like one to me.

Oh yeah I forgot, we need to create an abortion of a slot system currently used by USPSA. Talk about a system that begs to be donw away with. Let's see you get a slot if you win an Area Match, finish in the "top16" read the first loser and the next top 14 losers. Slots are sent out, wait for slots to be returned at deadline which seem to get extended, then three weeks out from the match(this year being one of the first in many moons to have a waiting list)bitch and complain the match has slots and no one to fill them. Yeah sounds like a good system to copy, ah wrong answer.

Like it or not those that want to participate will and can with the current 1st come 1 st served system. You wil compete against those better than you and have fun. Does it matter that so&so couldn't/didn't shoot; no, you/I did that's what matters. If you feel it is not a "national championshiop"; don't shoot it, there will be some one to fill the space.

The idea of making the match a week long venture gets costly to all involved, especially the organization. It takes man hours and time to run a week long match. ALso it requires that you have sufficient staffing and they can wear thin come the end of the year. Staff expense is one reason that USPSA went to the back to back format it did for the Open and Limited Nationals; not only did it cut Hqs cost but members costs.

If you want to add more shooters, possibly the match needs to be structured as a half day format. Less shooting, but more shooters. This does require the stages to be easy to score and help from the participants on all stages. Bad weather throws a major monkey wrench in the works.

No I think the concept of you pay, you play
works. It is a Championship because it is declared to be so. I have shot USPSA, IDPA and IPSC Championship level matches, come to think of it I have officiated them too; The fun factor in IDPA is worth more than the pomposity factor of USPSA and IPSC Championships.

If you don't think the match is title of National Champion is deserved or that it is not a Nat'l Champ.; don't shoot it. There is no reason to bend over and kiss somebodies ass to attend or save them a sweetheart spot as they are sponsored by so&so, or they are so&so. If they want to shoot, they will pay and pay on time; or try again next year.
 
#26 ·
John, thanks for the suggestion but I remember seeing an article in one of the recent tactical journals about SO's having to be certified. If I remember correctly there are only a certain group of people who can certify an SO for an IDPA match. Is this true and if so how can I be an SO at the nationals??
 
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