I think several people need to grow up and quit bickering. I used to be a very competitive B.A.S.S. tournament fisherman and finally got fed up with the arguments backstabbing lying and while following the letter of the rules basically cheating. Even at the local club level.I came to IDPA because I figured it was greed that caused this. I come to these forums to learn stuff that will make me a better shooter with my gun. I shoot a .40 Highpower in ESP. If IDPA created a new division that included only .22 rimfire and .40 HP's I would still shoot my HP I go to matches to have fun and make myself a better shooter. If I win great if I don't great I enjoy getting a little better each time. I see unfair practices around me My HP will shoot quarter size groups and I have been scored a miss when I know it was a hit I've seen a shooter who is obviosly an expert or maybe master shooting in Sharpshooter division don't know if like me he chokes at the qualifiers, hasn't got around to shooting a qualifier or is trying to be slick and win in a lower division. But you know what I don't care. I shoot against myself. I hang out before and after the shoot and eat cookies swap war stories, tease other shooters and get teased in return. The IDPA shooters I meet pretty much do the same. My first match a man I never met handed me extra magazines a mag holder and enough extra rounds so my check things out visit became a shoot the match visit with my carry gun. To me that's what IDPA is. If you want to show up with your grey area sponsor provided equipment nitpicking every letter of every rule come on out I'll strike up a conversation pick your brain and maybe learn something new. But I'm not going to lose any sleep because sombody has a better caliber, holster, etc than I do.
IDPA: Rules and Spirit
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614 Posts
Great post Joe.I couldn`t of said it better myself.
The spirit will live on if the shooters don't start to take theselves too seriously. The other killer is losing the fun factor, that comes from taking yourself too seriously.
There have been posts about you can't wear your XYZ company shirts. Well let me tell you, after 10 years in the business as writer, trainer, and consultant about firearms; my polo style shirt collection is an advertisement for several XYZ Companies. When training my shirts have several patches and logos from the companies whose products are used in class(they have given them to us, the firearms and gear), yes it is a form of payback. If I grab one, and I don't go out of my way, its what I will wear to shoot a major match; State, Area, Nationals, etc. Get over it I am in the business, I have to cover my assets; it is not the " I am showing off attitude".
Alot of folks buy shirts from their favorite manufacturers just because. Others do it for the same reason you see folks wearing their favorite NFL, NBA, team jersies; to be a part of it.
Shirts and hats are not what shooting is about. If that is what it is to you, then you'r way to anal-retentive to shoot with me.
Hell because I wear a Mossy Oak or Realtree hat does that make a big time hunter; not likely, it just works well for what it was purchased.
Shoot safe and HAVE FUN.
There have been posts about you can't wear your XYZ company shirts. Well let me tell you, after 10 years in the business as writer, trainer, and consultant about firearms; my polo style shirt collection is an advertisement for several XYZ Companies. When training my shirts have several patches and logos from the companies whose products are used in class(they have given them to us, the firearms and gear), yes it is a form of payback. If I grab one, and I don't go out of my way, its what I will wear to shoot a major match; State, Area, Nationals, etc. Get over it I am in the business, I have to cover my assets; it is not the " I am showing off attitude".
Alot of folks buy shirts from their favorite manufacturers just because. Others do it for the same reason you see folks wearing their favorite NFL, NBA, team jersies; to be a part of it.
Shirts and hats are not what shooting is about. If that is what it is to you, then you'r way to anal-retentive to shoot with me.
Hell because I wear a Mossy Oak or Realtree hat does that make a big time hunter; not likely, it just works well for what it was purchased.
Shoot safe and HAVE FUN.
Its like dress codes. It doesn't matter what you wear. It's who you are as a person. Robbie, Ernie,Jerry and a host of others can whoop my butt but it does'nt bother me at all. I watch them shoot with admiration, I talk to them to see what I can learn and I have fun. If you come to any sport with a "perception" of how it should be your going to be disappointed. This is reality, people will bicker, argue and fight about anything....it's human nature. Thats why we have SO's and Match Directors.
Bottom line is Do not let your perception become reality. View the whole picture and quit worrying about what other people do.
Bottom line is Do not let your perception become reality. View the whole picture and quit worrying about what other people do.
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581 Posts
Attire. Here is what I think. Some shooters should show up naked. Some should not. As long as your clothes are in good taste, wear what you got. It doesn’t matter if your shirt says Glock, Springfield, STI or Harley Davidson. IPSC specifically disallows camouflage. We had a somewhat strange family who wanted to wear camo. I asked them not to. They agreed. Then showed up at the next match wearing purple and pink camo. The host club liaison hit the roof. Now they just wear tan BDU's or black BDU's. I violated an IDPA club “spirit policy/attire policy” and was 86-ed from that range.
Rules. Easy call there. Follow them. Do not try to interpret them. But don’t be an asshole about following the rules. Nobody like a DRL, not even puppies. If it’s a grey area, benefit to the shooter, always. A grey area in course design, benefit to the fun factor.
Scoring. If I have to look close enough to see if it is touching the perf, benefit to the shooter.
Spirit. There is only a handfull of people who actually know what the "spirit" of IDPA really is. We may think we know what the spirit is, but it’s our version. A stage that Bill Wilson designs may be almost identical to the one I design. But his will always be better in his eyes.
My spirit of IDPA didn’t include changing the rules just to change the rules. Different subject, I digress.
Overall, just get out there and shoot and have some fun. Maybe even lighten up a bit. Its a game.
Tom
AF Shooting Team
Rules. Easy call there. Follow them. Do not try to interpret them. But don’t be an asshole about following the rules. Nobody like a DRL, not even puppies. If it’s a grey area, benefit to the shooter, always. A grey area in course design, benefit to the fun factor.
Scoring. If I have to look close enough to see if it is touching the perf, benefit to the shooter.
Spirit. There is only a handfull of people who actually know what the "spirit" of IDPA really is. We may think we know what the spirit is, but it’s our version. A stage that Bill Wilson designs may be almost identical to the one I design. But his will always be better in his eyes.
My spirit of IDPA didn’t include changing the rules just to change the rules. Different subject, I digress.
Overall, just get out there and shoot and have some fun. Maybe even lighten up a bit. Its a game.
Tom
AF Shooting Team
Joined
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274 Posts
That's the TRUTH! :smile: The only shooters that can wear nothing is the Swedish bikini team. :smile: Everybody else better were something.
Spirit is a nebulous entity. How you define it, is how you judge others. I think I have the proper spirit, while there are others that would disagree with that statement.
I believe there is a difference in having and not having the spirit of IDPA and being competitive. I am competitive, I do not go out with the idea of being happy with last. I carry a 5in 1911 and I compete with a 5in 1911. I will make you work to beat me.
I have found that peer pressure works in keeping shooters where they need to be. I have found very few experts and master class shooters in marksman divisions.
If you are not having fun, and I have lots, then you need to think about your ideas and the way you approach shooting IDPA and other shooting sports as well.
Joined
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90 Posts
You guys clearly state what I've found through my 2 runs with IDPA.
Folks who come up and help you after a stage is run, give you advice and encouragement, and as a newbie, that is helpful.
No criticizing my choice of carry weapon (SIG 225) or holster, just folks out to have fun and still be competitive. I appreciate the fact that I can be competitive here with what I carry, as opposed to not being in the ball park with the open guns and other stuff elsewhere.
Folks who come up and help you after a stage is run, give you advice and encouragement, and as a newbie, that is helpful.
No criticizing my choice of carry weapon (SIG 225) or holster, just folks out to have fun and still be competitive. I appreciate the fact that I can be competitive here with what I carry, as opposed to not being in the ball park with the open guns and other stuff elsewhere.
Interesting spirit story:
I used to live in Las Vegas and shot the local "Paladin" match. Paladin is basically a realistic/tactically-oriented three gun match originally designed by the same guys who do the SOF 3 Gun Match. The club predated IDPA and is an excellent learning experience.
A standard of the Paladin match is a man-on-man steel stage. I had done very well the previous match and was "destined" to win this stage as it was a double elimination match and I hadn't lost one yet. The gentleman I was shooting against challenged "in the spirit of Paladin" to finish the shoot off weak/support handed. Since I couldn't really say no, we shot weak/support handed. I quickly lost both strings and finishing in second place as my support hand skills weren't as good as his.
Rather than whine or bitch, I spent the four weeks between the matches developing my support side shooting skills. Guess what, next match I was again challenged to a weak hand final match - and this time I won.
Unfortunately, I've encountered this type of attitude rarely at IDPA matches but sorely miss it.
I used to live in Las Vegas and shot the local "Paladin" match. Paladin is basically a realistic/tactically-oriented three gun match originally designed by the same guys who do the SOF 3 Gun Match. The club predated IDPA and is an excellent learning experience.
A standard of the Paladin match is a man-on-man steel stage. I had done very well the previous match and was "destined" to win this stage as it was a double elimination match and I hadn't lost one yet. The gentleman I was shooting against challenged "in the spirit of Paladin" to finish the shoot off weak/support handed. Since I couldn't really say no, we shot weak/support handed. I quickly lost both strings and finishing in second place as my support hand skills weren't as good as his.
Rather than whine or bitch, I spent the four weeks between the matches developing my support side shooting skills. Guess what, next match I was again challenged to a weak hand final match - and this time I won.
Unfortunately, I've encountered this type of attitude rarely at IDPA matches but sorely miss it.
Thats what is great about IDPA, you are where you are. It reallt doesn't matter what the other guy/gal does. One can always get the training benefit from shooting the qualifier or club match. We should stop watching others and start watching our own lanes.
mark
mark
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515 Posts
Folks can call things whatever they wish, but the Paladin program was developed and refined by Rick Miller during the 1980's and 1990's and has been the subject of many of Rick's columns in COMBAT HANDGUNS. The heart of the Paladin program is the scoring system, wherein the shooter is free to fire as many (or few) shots as he deems appropriate on each target. To be considered neutralized, the target must have at least one "A" hit or hits totalling eight points. An unneutralized target gets the shooter a five second penalty. The lowest elapsed time (plus penalties) wins the scenario.
Paladin scoring works nicely on many rifle scenarios and most shotgun scenarios and we use it for these weapons too. However, there is nothing strictly "3-gun" about Paladin scoring. You may have a Paladin pistol (only) or shotgun (only) match. We frequently do.
Paladin scoring also works well for shooting steel knock-down targets, but there is nothing about Paladin that requires steel targets.
We also do "man against man" bouts fairly regularly, but Paladin scoring really doesn't apply here. The winner is determined simply by who knocks down his target first.
I have had some correspondence with one of the competitors who was attending the "Paladin" matches in Vegas. This fellow had read Rick's articles and was annoyed at seeing the principles of the Paladin program misinterpreted by the match director (his particular complaint was that the match director was stipulating the number of shots to be fired on each target, something that is absolutely CONTRARY to the Paladin program). While there is no reason that the Paladin system cannot be modified to suit the real or imagined needs of a particular match director or trainer, it is best to call the modified system something other than Paladin...for the sake of precise communication. IDPA's "Vickers Count" is a modification of the Paladin scoring system.
Should anyone wonder how I can speak so definatively on what is and isn't "Paladin", it is because I was there when it was developed and perhaps even helped a bit.
Rosco
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