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Has anybody seen one of these? Owned one? Shot one? Especially intrested in the opinions of the smiths on the board who make these things for a living. I want to know if Les is doing them right. :wink: Specifically the Premier II.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Biathlonman on 2001-04-20 15:20 ]</font>
 

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No doubt someone in their shop has the ability to build a 9x23 but as of last year or less one of my cutomers was told by Les that they hadn't made a 9x23, was a bad idea and attempted to sell him a Super.

Huge difference between building a reliable Super and a 9x23. Simple test question...ask them about ramped and unramped barrels. If you are told "must have" a ramped barrel go else where IMO.
 

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Dane,

Speaking of ramped barrels, could you enlighten us on the pros and cons of using them? Are they good/bad for some guns/calibers and not others?
 

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Ditto, as usual, what guru Dane said.

Also, the heat treat on Les Baer frames is suspect at best, as is their "warranty".

Ramped barrels are great in widebody frames in hot loaded 9mms like 9x21 and the nearly endless variations of the 38 Super, also the 40 S&W. Pretty much mandatory for 38 Super and 40 loaded to 170 power factor or above.

Not neccesary for 45ACP as it is a low pressure cartridge, 10mm and 9x23 are hell for stout cases and do not require a supported chamber.

Dane and I and a few others are of the opinion that ramped barrels are less feed reliable in a 1911 single stack.
HTH

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Steve Morrison on 2001-04-20 20:10 ]</font>
 

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Ramped barrels? The only pro is not blowing 38 Super loads pumped to major power factors. Works better in high cap guns than single stacks IMO. Cons? Across the board most working smiths will suggest they are less reliable in any caliber. More so in single stack guns.

I no longer will build with ramped barrls for just those reasons. Makes one think about 9x23 for hot loads and I get the benefit of the utmost in reliability from the design.
 

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I have only used Lissner ramped barrels for building single stack magazine pistols, so I cannot comment on the American variety.
The one I'm working on currently is a 9X23 that will be in a carry gun configuration, for a magazine article.
The available cases for 9X23 are, indeed, very stout. I have some of the primed Winchester cases that I have to cringe when I punch out the pistol primer, which I have to pay for and never use in a 9X23. The Starline Super Comp brass is a better way to go.
If you find a gunsmith who has worked on the Browning HiPower ramped barrel for a lifetime, you will find that reliability is more a function of the wrong bullet configuration than the ramped barrel. Out of a 10 shot magazine, in the Colt, you have 10 different bullet strikes (as you have 8 out of a .45 auto). You may run into some heartburn with some, but all can be made reliable with a little experimentation on the range, fooling with different recoil springs and using the proper shaped bullets and a good load of Universal Clays. Using the proper lubricating technique is also at the heart of the matter.
As I said, the Lissner barrels are superb, more easily mounted correctly than US made barrels and accuracy has been up to my greatest expectations. One downside: The barrel costs a gunsmith $300 before any installation work is done on it.
I would not dare to fire some of the 9X23 loads, sent me by readers, in my Colt; these are best reserved for a ramped and fully supported system. Happily, most shooters are not trying to make the 9X23 into something hotter.
When my dad bought his .38 super in 1929, he bought a couple of cases of the Peters Ctg. Co.loads. These cartridges were pulled off the market in '30 when shooters with the old 1900 pistols killed themselves with the hot ammo. American cartridge makers subsequently lowered the loadings for .38 super to proof for the .38 acp, and the super faded into the tree line. Now that those early guns are all in collections, it may be safe to up the super to its original ballistics for ones own use. However, when a hot loaded 9X23 gets slipped into an early Colt .38 or an Astra 400 (yes, it chanmbers and fires, but with catastrophic results) somebody is going to have a multi million dollar lawsuit on their hands.
Never fear, I'll cover your court case and write it up. And THAT is why some gun manufacturers and pistolsmiths will not make up 9X23 pistols or share their load data, and why some loading manuals ignore the cartridge entirely.
Since I really love this cartridge in the 1911, I'm going to propose a solution that will prevent this kind of mishap from coming to pass.
 

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On 2001-04-21 18:21, John Lawson wrote:
The available cases for 9X23 are, indeed, very stout.
Good info.

The Starline Super Comp brass is a better way to go.
Bad info.
----------------------------------------
The problem is most don't understand the 9x23. John might, but we disagree here.

The 9x23 as loaded by Winchester is exactly as "ordered". If the gun is built right and using the correct brass (read Winchester) the guns are awesome. MickyMouse it and the pressures and it's VERY dangerious.

General agreement in the smithing industry is the ramped barrels are not as reliable as the orginal Colt system in a 1911. Add to that the mag stack of a 10 round 9x23 flush mag and you'll have more problems as John mentions. Use the correct brass and there is no need for a ramped barrel in 9x23 for any reason.


And THAT is why some gun manufacturers and pistolsmiths will not make up 9X23 pistols or share their load data, and why some loading manuals ignore the cartridge entirely
:roll:

I worked with sales and R&D at Winchester on the 9x23. I am currently building a 9x23 gun for Lapua and discussing brass options for 9x23 with them. I share all my 9x23 reloading data at http://www.burnscustom.com and when I get time will add some new ones we have been using, including a 147 gr bullet at 1400fps.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-04-21 19:45 ]</font>
 

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147 grain @ 1400 :eek:

Have used the Lapua brass in the 338Lapua, man, it is good quality stuff. Lapua is stretching its legs in the brass market again...looking forward to their 6.5x284 offering, can't be at a worse price point than Norma. Talk about goofing, Winchester makes 284 brass, that about 98% of the folks shooting the 6.5 now use...but for whatever reason, they just won't size it to 6.5 from the factory. If they did, Norma might not sell a single piece in that caliber. Must say though, the Norma stuff now is a very uniform weight.

Very interested in your Lapua project Dane, keep posting on it!
 

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I got this reply from the folks at "Les Baer Custom" a few weeks ago and it is on this very subject, so I will paste a copy of the eMail as is and would like any and all feedback as I am getting ready to order a 9x23, but have not made up my mind as from whom to order it.

My eMail;
At 07:35 AM 6/9/01 -0500, you wrote:
Hello Angie & Brenda,
As I am planing on ordering a new Les Baer 1.5" Premier II in the next 60 days, I have a few questions. I need to find out just what Les will build and won't.

Does Les build Pistols NOT listed in his Catalog ergo "Custom" 1911s?

If he does, then I think the best way to do this is on a Pistol to Pistol bases,

#1 Premier II "Two Tone" 9x23mm, Stainless Steel Frame, Blue Steel Slide. (This is what I really want)

#2 Premier II "Two Tone" 9x23mm, Hard Chrome Frame and Blue Steel Slide.

#3 Premier II 9x23mm, Hard Chrome,

All of the above Pistols are to be 1.5", NIGHT SIGHTs installed, Tactical Package BUT NO AMBI or Wide Thumb Safety, only Extended Tactical (Long Narrow Style).

Frank Sottile

Wimberley, Texas 78676-3354
Their reply;
--Dear Frank:

Thanks for the inquiry. We can take various models of our 1911 and customize per a customers request (within reason). Of the models you are looking for and the request for the 1-1/2" groups @ 50, we would be able to do #2 or #3. First off, we do not do the 1-1/2" groups or 9X23 caliber on any of the stainless steel pistols and that is why I omitted your choice of #1.

For the Premier II, 9X23 the pricing would be as folows:

Premier II, 9X23.......................$1649.00

1-1/2" groups @ 50 yards............... 295.00

Hard Chrome Frame & Blue Slide......... 150.00 (Frame & Small Parts)

Install Night Sights Front & Rear...... 85.00

Single Sided Safety Tactical........... N/C


Premier II, 9X23 Hard Chrome complete pistol.

Pricing same as above but add $200.00 to hard chrome the complete pistol.

Delivery: Approximately 12-16 Weeks from the date of deposit. (50%) Specify all above items when placing the order through a licensed dealer.

Thanks again for the inquiry and if you need any additional information, please feel free to call or e-mail our office.

karen
From what I have read about Les on this Forum, the more I am thinking of ordering this 1911 from Dane Burns or Ed Brown instead. - Thanks to all for their help in this matter.

BTW - any feedback on Ed Brown?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Frank Sottile on 2001-06-25 10:11 ]</font>
 
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I placed an order in December for a Premier 2 in 9x23, I am still waiting.

As to ramped barrels I believe Dane is 100% accurate and it is odd timing as we just talked of this subject last night on a 10mm high cap STI I am having built (another smith), not for any particular reason it was just a timing issue.
 

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Thought I'd share this: I emailed Nowlin awhile ago about building me a single stack 10mm gun, and they suggested using a RAMPED barrel. Right then and there I knew something was wrong :eek: Maybe they are concerned about liability over blown up guns. I would imagine that is maybe where Les Baer is coming from too.

Dane,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tim Bacus use ramped barrels in his 9x23 guns? To me, it doesn't seem like a necessity given then strength of the brass, and would only hinder reliability. I'm asking because I've heard you say before that Tim knows how to build a 9x23 gun right....
 

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9x23 is a strange bird. Takes some to get them to run. I have talked with more than one nationally known smith that needed help with the caliber.

Another phone call this week from a customer (not my customer mind you) about a ramped 9x23 from another shop that went back to the smith because it was not reliable.

I am not the only guy who can make them run but the list is indeed very small when it comes to 5" or smaller carry guns and the guys who can actually build a relaible gun.

Ask the smith if he carries a single stack and shoots factory 9x23 ammo while doing so. If not find, another smith is my suggestion. Past that get and check his references for 9x23 guns he has built.

Key here is Winchester factory ammo.

That will limit the field quickly.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-23 02:53 ]</font>
 
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Funny, when I called STI and questioned as to my 10mm project gun they made the same statement that "all of the guys who run hot 10mms use a ramped barrel".
Thinking myslef crazy I called Dane and he seconded my notion that I really am crazy by agreeing with me that we don't like ramped 10mms...just kidding Dane..
Seriously, with only one exception every 10mm gun I have ever purchased has been non-ramped and although the 9x23 reaches higher pressures I would suspect that the brass is more than stout enough.
 

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Like I said this is the age of 'product liability'. :lol:
 

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Easy way to make some more money when you have a dozen frames in a row that need the frame cuts when you have the mill set up. Hey, I shoot heavy pin loads all the time, and my guns have ramped bbls, but most loads dont need them. No flames intended,just an observation.
 

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I really don't understand why a ramped barrel would be any less reliable than an unramped. It seems it would depend on the smith knowing how to fit either type of barrel and how the magazine fits into the gun determing where the bullet will strike the ramp. I agree that if one is using winchester 9x23 brass only there shouldn't be a problem and then why the need to go the expense of a ramped barrel.
My experience, of which none of it is practical, but 100,000s of rounds of super, 9x21 and 9x23 out of "game" guns with ramped barrels, I have never had a reliability problem attributable to a ramped barrel. Also I don't understand why a ramped barrel would work any better in a double stack than a single stack..the round should leave the mag at the same spot and strike the feed ramp at the same point double or single.

Would someone please explain in a mechanical, engineering way why the ramped barrel is less reliable than a unramped rather than just saying so...

thank you
 

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...Hmmm...
 
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It came in the second week of July while I was away on vacation, it was a nice "surprise".

While I was at AGO to pick it up another customer asked to hold it then to cycle the action and twenty minutes later he left with the Baer 9x23.
I never even got the chance to shoot it but I made enough money on the deal that I put aside the extra cash (profit) and immediately ordered a new one with Adjustable night sights, ambi safety, and hard chrome the nice thing is that it is paid in full.

It should make a nice xmas gift from me to me....
 

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David,
That sound nice, too bad it took 7 (SEVEN) Months to get it. Ed Brown says he can do it in 60 to 90 Days, as I am getting my "Green Stamps" in order and getting ready to place any order myself with Ed Brown for a 5" Class A Ltd., Two-Tone in 9x23mm. Ed even said he would build one in a 4.25", if I like but was not too hot on the idea.

From an eMail;
I don't think a 9x23 in a 4.25" barrel is a good choice, but we would build one if you want. A 9x23 might be reliable, but the muzzle blast would be terrible. We can do a supported barrel if you want. -Ed.
What do you think?


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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Frank Sottile on 2001-09-13 13:15 ]</font>
 
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