Pistol Smith Forum banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
322 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(At first I couldn't decide whether to post this here or under "Competition", but since I'm expounding on my reply to "Unpleasant Suprises" in this section, I put it here. If one of the moderators sees fit to move it, go for it...)
Anyway, at a recent IDPA match, I was suprised, and rather disheartened, at the number of competitors who shot with one gun and holster combo in the match, then took that set-up off and put on another rig and gun to go home. One top shooter switched from a custom 1911 in a IDPA-legal paddle to a Kahr in a Spark's Versa-Max, another from a Glock 34 in low-slung kydex to a G27 in an Uncle Mike's clip-on IWB. If we're really doing this for beneficial training, shouldn't we be shooting exactly what we carry and eating a slice of humble pie if we don't place in the Top 10; instead of using the latest tricked-out gadget gun in an IDPA legal holster that's barely concealable under a parka? And how about shooting the exact factory JHP that you trust your life to instead of American Eagle or Remington UMC? (I think IDPA should stress the use of factory ammo designed for defense only).
I've always used my off-duty Glock 23 for IDPA. When I began I was using one of my "2C-Special" holsters (my version of an "Avenger"). I stopped to ask myself "What are you doing..." as this is not my normal spring/summer carry rig. I switched to one of my "In-Cognito" IWB holsters, my daily off-duty set-up. I will switch back to the 2C in fall/winter, as that is how I carry under a leather jacket; and will compete with the jacket on.
Aside from building proficiency, the other purpose of training is to find out what works and what doesn't, in a training environment instead of on the street, when it's too late. If you're shooting IDPA, and you're not using your daily carry gun, holster, and ammo; ask yourself if you're shooting for training or for score, and ask yourself who you're really cheating.
I imagine I've opened a can of worms here;
Thoughts? Comments? Gripes? Complaints?

Safe shooting,
Mark Garrity
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
152 Posts
Mark,
You are quite right, but I'm afraid you are in a distinct minority. I have been in IDPA since day one (member #A00008), have shot in every Nationals, ran the 1999 Nationals, and spent two years on the BoD, so I think I know something about IDPA.
In my experience, not more than 10-15% of IDPA members carry a gun at all off the range, much less carry the same gun they compete with. Several major events have been conducted in Missouri, including two National matches, where carrying a pistol is a felony. When I pointed out the problems with this, I was told that this was not really an issue, since so few members actually carried anyway.
I won the Tennessee state championship in 1998 with the .40 High Power and 180 Hydra-Shoks I was carrying daily at the time. If I shoot in a match now, it's with the 1911 and 230 JHP's I carry now. That's fine at the local level, but I can tell you from experience that won't cut it at the National level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
125 Posts
We do not have a local IDPA, and I have never shot one, but this is how I shoot the local IPSC matches when I attend.

I always figured it was a chance to preactice and hone my skills.

Denny
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Hi Mark. Interesting post, but unfortunately, I must respectfully disagree with your premise that you should only shoot your carry gun.

First, I carry a Glock 19. In the summer I carry it IWB in a Sparks Summer Special with an untucked shirt. In the winter it is either in the Sparks or in a Ron Graham BeltSlide under a vest.

When I shoot SSP, this is exactly what I shoot. I will alternate using the IWB and the beltslide so that I get trigger time with both. I either untuck my shirt or wear my vest (usually the vest).

Life would get pretty boring without the variety of choice. So, I also shoot my Baer .45 in CDP and my CZ75 in ESP. I use a Safariland paddle holster with these guns and I ALWAYS wear my vest when shooting these guns. Sadly, I would venture to guess that less than 5% of the shooters at the matches I attend shoot from concealment.

So, while I think it is beneficial to shoot your carry set-up, I don't think it need be the only set-up you shoot. I enjoy shooting all 3 guns equally, and I don't think it is a bad idea to become efficient with differing platforms. Thanks for a thought provoking post.

Regards,
Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
325 Posts
Good points all Gentlemen, here is my 2 cents. I think the goal of shooting this type of event is to hone one's skills. If you want to beat everyone then just take your kids shooting and pat yourself on the back for kicking their ass at it. I think all shooting with all guns can make you a better shooter, but the spirit of the thing shouldn't have anything to do with winning the competition. If I could spend a day at the range with Todd Jarret or Massad Ayoob I wouldn't avoid it because I knew they'd shoot better than I would, instead I would go and pay attention and try to pick up some tips for how I can shoot better. I think shooting against people who are way better than you is the best way to test your skills under pressure as well and to bring out the best in yourself. On the other hand, if the guy shooting next to me wants to carry a compensated .22 short with a 90 round magazine and an aimpoint on it - Fine by me. Losing to that guy isn't going to shake the foundations of my confidence in my abilities. Me, I feel like I should shoot with what I carry, but someone else shooting with something else doesn't bother me. I don't respect it, but it doesn't give me bad dreams at night either. We can use all the pro-gun people we can get, now and always. If shooting some buck rogers super blaster floats some guy's boat - more power to him. But if I ever had to choose someone to go into harms way with it wouldn't necessarily be the guy with the best score but probably would be the guy I thought was taking it seriously. The only things we have to prove are the things we have to prove to ourselves. That's my take on it anyway. Good shooting fellows. Jake
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
939 Posts
Well, Mark, I agree with you...but all you need to do is review that book of rules and the conclusion is obvious: IDPA is a shooting game, not at all unlike IPSC or even Cowboy action shooting. Start with the ban on 5" revolvers that many shot...and work your way through the list :smile:

When I go, and it is not often, I go to shoot with friends, and I shoot my BCP 1911 with 230 grainers, or my 9x23. Yes, there are probably better guns for this particular game...but I wouldn't trade what I wear there, shoot there, and wear home, for any 3 guns I have seen.
 
G

·
Great post Mark,
It kind of rings true to an incident that occured in the midwest in the 90s while I was attending an EP class given by a very well known instructor.

On Wednesday of a five day class we arrived at the range to be told that the class was cancelled abruptly due to a family emergency for the instructor.

Well, I was pissed and decided stay out the week anyway, on Friday I am at the local bar playing a game of billiards with a few guys from class when two locals join us. Well after we win and take this poor guys money we went to a barbecue at it turns out the town sheriffs ranch.
The sheriff is an avid gun collector/hunter and begins telling us this story of the biggest BS artisit he has ever met, this gunwriter/instructor so and so...
Well so and so was the guy we all paid a fair sum of money to for the weeks worth of class.

It turns out on Tuesday evening so and so is out on the town and finds some action or rather it found him, he is then beaten (punched once in the nose- sheriifs words) and left kneeling by at least 1 sheriff, possibly two teen-aged boys who then joy ride his Mercedes coupe all over town(12 heavily armed men his words).

The boys are arrested and his car is recovered and the sheriff contacts him, he comes on Saturday and I having spent the evening at the sheriffs ranch ride into town with him to head home at which point so and so is picking up his car.

Seeing me he turns very red, then pale as I am now telling him he has a lot of explaining to do, he turns and hands me a full refund check for my tuition and asks me to "do him a favor" he is not after all really an ex-SF tabber, nor does he actually carry a gun, he is really a real estate broker with family "in the business" and he would be glad to arrange some work for me when I get discharged.

I agreed and he did come through landing me a postiion at $1600 a day for a billionare the very day I was discharged.
(Hey don't judge me it was hard work, and I was young and did not have a penny to my name)
Today he is the author of, at last count 7 books on CQB, pistols, sub machine guns, sniper tactics and other ridiculous titles.
I've seen his work published at least several dozen times in the popular press and I know that he has shot the NTI and numerous regional IPSC matches.

What goes around......
Oh and recently a well known combatives instructor was saved by the short hairs. Ok his very beautiful girlfriend when unarmed in a state that he does qualify for a CCW in he was cornered by two men armed with knives, he drew his combat folder and actually struck up a reverse grip fighting stance, the two men burst out laughing and while they were laughing the "guru's" girlfriend pulled a $50 and said ti was all she had take it and go away, the instructors girlfriend threw the money about 10 ft away and they turned and left.

The "guru" actually flew home to his "combat range" the next day and bought a new Glock in his name then loaded the pistol, holstered it and took it home with him for "protection".
One of my former employers installed a new $10k home security system for him and he now plans to use a driver/local security service when he goes out of state to teach courses.

Not that this behavior is limited to the shooting sports market it also spreads just as easily in other areas of sport.....

Then there is the very well known kickboxing fighter turned movie star (world champion actually, Europe or something) and former self defense trainer to the stars who while visiting the big apple a few summers back drank just a few to many beers while enjoying his "status" at Scores with the girls when he decided to mouth off and threaten a "local" guy.
Well the local guy got up from our group of tables and walked over to the tough guy at which point the TG then threw what is probably the worst left cross I have ever seen.
This move resulted in his being struck in the jaw with a right handed upper cut, the tough guy did not realize that the "local" was actually a guy with real street fighting experience who had actually hit more than his share of real people.
The TG was knocked unconscious and we carried him to the ambulance (see I told you dear I was working), his jaw was wired temporarily and after a brief delay he returned to his acting both on and off the screen.

It takes all kinds, the truly bad thing is that you cannot make a sport out of fighting with firearms and knives so each time you try it becomes what it is a "sport" an athletic endeavor with guns or knives sometimes both.

With IDPA, IPSC, etc. these sports are good for the shooting sports industry, the gunsmiths, the ammo makers, the gun manufacturers, holster makers to Mark! and the writers/trainers and I guess that makes them a good thing, we need to understand this and hold off the tendency to want to raise the bar to further realism.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
79 Posts
Unless I missed it somewhere, another reason why many people don't compete with their carry guns is that their competition guns are setup differently. While there are formulae for the minimum bullet standards, people will sometimes load to that minimum which is quite a bit different than your typical defense load. As such, they may have different springs on their competition gun as compared to their defense gun. They may have a honking big mag well on their competition gun that they don't on their carry gun because the honking big mag well creates a print problem. They may like to shoot a solid steel gun in competition because of the reduced felt recoil or muzzle flip, but carry a lightweight version as their carry gun because they don't like hauling around all that weight.

If people have the resources, they will cater to the best options for the tasks at hand.

Personally, I like the idea of staying with a particular gun type, like 1911 or Glock and not switching between types.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
54 Posts
And here I was getting ready to start shooting IPSC again with my Glock Mod. 22 hybrid, complete with laser, Optima 2000, 3.5 lb trigger and 20 round magazines.

Will it make me less serious about defense if I induldge once in a while? I don't think so. Afterall, I have been teaching defensive pistolcraft for over a decade, and working as a street cop for over 20 yrs.

Sometimes a boy just wants to have fun...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
Marty,

Can't say it any better than that :grin:



As for shooting your carry ammo.........who could afford it ??? I am not a heavy shooter but I still get in 2 IDPA and 3 IPSC matches per month on average plus 2-3 practice sessions so let's see......1,000 +/-rds per month at a dime or so for reloads, or 1,000 rounds of say for example Fed Hydro at $$$$$ per 1000

You tell me why people shoot reloads and not their carry ammunition.....:eek:

have fun and be safe,

laters,

gr :cool:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kahana on 2001-08-27 22:44 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
I have to say that IDPA has been one of my biggest disappointments. I read all the wonderful magazine articles when the sport first began and was impressed by what was supposed to be offered. My first IDPA match was quite an eye opener and I quickly realized that very few IDPA clubs offer realisitic defensive matches.

To date, I have found one offical IDPA club that is tactically sound. This club is SunDog shooters in Prescott, Az. The match is run my GunSite graduates and the match is designed to teach and practice skills. Since that area has such a concentration of great instructors, they have a guest lecture at the start of each match and at least one stage that has you practice that skill. Their website is http://www.sundog-shooters.com and I would highly recommend attending one of their matches if you're in the area.

All the other IDPA matches I've shot reinforced bad tactics and actions that would likely get you killed. I've shot IDPA matches and been complimented on my excellent use of cover or tactical movement. However, I was the only shooter who did so and from a win/lose perspective of the "game," I was penalized for doing right.

I've found IDPA most useful for a shooting opportunity. If you want to train and develop skills at an IDPA match, you must forget about "winning" the match and set goals for yourself. The one that I generally set is to be the "lowest down" shooter in the match.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
JohnH wrote:

"The one [goal] that I generally set is to be the "lowest down" shooter in the match"

I also try to do the same. In the IDPA matches that I shoot, there are a lot of guys that shoot as fast as they can without much regard for the quality of their hits. Doesn't make much sense to me.

I try to shoot as accurately as I can, as fast as I can, in that order. Using this approach over the last 2 IDPA seasons has caused my speed to continually improve, without even consciously trying to shoot faster.


Regards,
Frank
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
I also wrote a couple of essays with my observations about realistic competition.

COMPETITION: WHAT'S BAD

When you read the gun rags, a common training tool that is recommended is to compete and the typical recommendation for this is the International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA). Writers will point out the benefits of training such as learning to deal with stress and practicing tactics like the use of cover. What these gods of handgunning don’t tell you is that not all competition is created equal and some of it is worthless in my mind. First, let me give you my starting point. I want to develop my skills in the use of the handgun to defend myself and others. From my point of view, if the “competition” isn’t doing that then its hurting me - that’s right not wasting my time but hurting me.

Why do I say hurt? I say this because of the way our mind works and learns. To our mind, there is no clear cut difference between reality and mental images like day dreams. This is why visualization works so well as a training tool - the mind doesn’t know any better. My concern with competition is that any time you practice bad habits like not using cover properly or leaving cover and reloading at the same time, you are programming your brain and making it more likely you will do these things in “real life.”

Also, studies of performance under stress have repeatedly shown that when you teach people multiple ways of performing a task, they will stop and think about which method to use and slow their response. In my mind, when you compete in an IPSC match, running and gunning your way through a stage, and then practice the proper use of cover, you are teaching you mind two different ways to do the same thing and this is not good. Forget “he who hesitates is lost” I worry about “he who hesitates is shot.”

This really worries me when you ingrain certain responses for competition like automatically clearing your weapon. I have seen shooters who, after their last round is fired, will drop their magazine, and lock the slide back and wait for inspection by the range officer. There are many things you might want to do after having a gunfight - looking behind you, changing your underwear, topping off your gun, calling 911 all strike me as reasonable responses. However, unloading you weapon immediately after what you THINK is your last shot is not smart.

In my mind, bad competition is anything that encourages you to do things that are not tactically sound. The obvious example of this is clearing a building. Any scenario that has you race through a “building” zapping bad guys left and right is BAD. Clearing a single corner is methodical, slow work, certainly not something you measure on a shot timer. This really points out why most competitions have such problems - they are all time based. Anytime you judge a shooter based soley on time, that shooter will shoot as fast as possible with less regard for effective hits - not the best response for the "real world."

Another problem associated with competition is poor target choice. For starters, two dimensional targets are almost always used. These targets don’t force you to adjust your point of aim when shot at from the side as you must in “real life.” Additionally, these targets don’t look like a living breathing adversary that you are likely to encounter. It is now being shown that people must be conditioned to actually use lethal force and realistic targets are a cornerstone of this conditioning. Not many people die each year after being attacked by a 18"x24" piece of vaguely humanoid cardboard.

Another problem I have observed with competition is that the use of low powered firearms is rewarded. Anyone who shoots for self-defense know that you should hit your opponent with as much force as you can handle and control. In real life, this means that a 40 S&W is superior to a light hand loaded 38 Special Wadcutter and a 45 ACP beats them both. Yet, I have seen people shoot matches with pipsqueak hand loaded 38 special ammo that punches a hole in the cardboard and not much else and then seen that person be rated a better shooter. Well duh, he isn’t dealing with the same level of recoil - he’s bound to be faster all other things being equal.

Another sure sign you're at the wrong match is round count. If there are scenarios that involve a large number of shots fired (assuming your hitting the targets) you're at the wrong match. If the match requires anything more than your weapon and a spare magazine you're at the wrong place.

Finally, while I’m ranting, I also really hate scenarios that have me run toward anything. There are damn few things in this world worth running toward gunfire for (unless you earn the princely salary of a law enforcement officer) yet every almost every match finds some reason for you to do this. What’s wrong with scenarios that have you retreat? It strikes me as a far more reasonable alternative. Fall back, get a bigger gun, if the problem still chases you, at least you’re ready and can hit it with something that smacks like a shotgun or rifle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Rather than just criticize, here are my ideas on what makes good competition.

COMPETITION: WHAT'S GOOD

So, what makes for good competition? How can you maximize the advantage that competition offers? Obviously, good competition is competition that encourages you to perform in a tactically sound manner. Another key component is good, tactically minded shooters. You can have the most wonderfully sound courses of fire but if the shooters aren't serious (or can't shoot), then all is wasted. Also, using realistic targets, preferably 3-D, is mandatory. Finally, you need really evil/imaginative people to develop stages.


I have searched high and low for such competition and found it to be pretty rare. I have shot several IDPA matches and they didn't cut it in my mind. The best examples I've found either discarded IDPA completely or heavily modified and adapted its rules to their needs. What follows are some ideas to maximize competition’s advantages:

SHOOT WITH SERIOUS SHOOTERS
First, only shoot with people who are serious about the defensive use of firearms. This isn't always easy but when you attract like minded shooters, you get a great sense of comradery and you'll make each other shoot better. This also gets rid of the whining and gamesmanship because the shoot is no longer a game - its training.

SURPRISE!!!
We're not talking birthdays here, we're talking scenarios. I've seen shooters sit around for five minutes and discuss how to shoot a stage. In real life, we don't have five seconds to figure out what to do. I believe that whenever possible, a shooter shouldn't know where targets, threats and non-threats, are located. At best you should get a quick look to understand the layout of an area and then you turn your back and the targets are added. This gives you enough time to ID cover like you do in real life (you do, don't you?) and then react to whatever presents itself.

ONLY SHOOT THREATS
This leads into another idea, only shooting visible threats. Any target you shoot in competition should be a target you could justifiably shoot in real life. Any target that is to be punctured should have a knife, a pistol or some other reason to be shot (and no, a Handgun Control Inc. T-Shirt isn't enough). To integrate these two, take this example: you approach a stage and only see six targets, none of them presenting a threat and several objects that represent cover. You turn your back and the RO adds guns to certain targets but not others and then explains the scenario. When the scenario begins, you have to ID threats before shooting. If you want to be real nasty, put a target with a firearm at ~20 yards next to a target with a knife. Almost all shooters will shoot both targets even though a guy standing 20 yards away with just a knife isn't a "shootable" threat unless he charges.

RANDOMIZE THINGS
Since life can be chancy, I like to add a factor of randomness to scenarios. How do you determine which targets become threats? Roll dice and find out. An excellent example of this is a slug drill my “friend” Max uses. A shooter loads his shotgun as he would carry it, typically all buck with some slugs readily available. The shooter faces four pepper poppers and two paper targets at longer distances. The shooter rolls two dice. Whichever numbers appear are the order in which the paper targets must be engaged with slugs. Roll a three and a five, you had better shoot one paper as your third target and one paper as your fifth target.

USE STEEL TARGETS
I really like steel targets because they reward shooters for shooting the most powerful round that they can effectively control. You don't want to bring your pip squeak 38 special loads to shoot on steel - they either don't work or you practice your head shots - a lot. I really like pepper poppers, especially when you modify them to make them more life like. Your scenarios shouldn't be all steel but one or two thrown in really makes life interesting.

REWARD DOING RIGHT
A great way to minimize the impact of shot timers is to reward proper tactical action by reducing a shooters time for “doing right”. What do I mean? Take this scenario for example. The shooter has three visible targets down range with a piece of low cover nearby. The shooter turns his/her back and the targets are randomly “armed:” one with a cardboard AK, another with a pistol, and the other with a set of “surrender hands.” At the buzzer the shooter turns and engages the threats. If a shooter just stands there and blasts everything as it stands he gets his straight time. But, if the shooter engages the target with the rifle first, he gets one second taken off of his time for prioritizing threats. If the shooter drops to a kneeling position, and then engages the threat, he gets two seconds knocked off his time for using cover. If the shooter goes to a roll-over prone position, completely behind cover, take four seconds off his time for really using cover. In my mind, the reward for a tactically correct response should be greater than the time it takes to perform that action. This will encourage shooters to “do right” because they are rewarded for it.

PRACTICE WITH JUST ONE HAND
While a two hand hold is ideal, it isn't always possible. Have shooters carry a baby during the scenario and make them shoot with just one hand. Or start the scenario with a "bag of groceries" in your arms. This will teach you that unless you're carrying a baby - you'll have to instantly dump what to have in your hands to fight.

PRACTICE OTHER SKILLS
If you're serious about shooting for self-defense, you need to practice skills other than shooting. I immediately think of weapons manipulations like reloading and malfunction clearances. For instance, during your man-on-man stage, require a reload before engaging the final target. My favorite example of this was done by Bob Shimuzu at a SunDog Shooters Match: The only target in this stage was a generous 12"x12" steel plate about seven yards from the shooter. The shooter turned his/her back and four pistols/revolvers with magazines were placed on a bench between the shooter and the target. The shooter simply had to pick up each pistol and hit the target three times with each weapon. Sound easy - well, three of the four had some type of malfunction like, a cylinder not closed properly or some variation of a Type I, II, or III malfunction. This was a pass/fail drill with shooters needing to have all of their hits in roughly sixty seconds.

PRACTICE WITH OTHER WEAPONS
Don't just limit yourself to handguns. Shoot stages that require a shotgun or rifle. Better yet, combine the two. For instance, have a man-on-man event with three poppers for each shooter. Allow the shooters their shotguns loaded with ONLY TWO rounds. At the signal shoot your shotguns until dry and then transition to the pistol. (This will really make you focus on your hits with those two rounds in the shotgun) I have also seen a stage that require a close range hostage shot from an AR-15 after a shooter had engaged other threats with their handgun. Apparently, many people don't know about the difference between the bore and the sight line and this resulted in many shot "hostages."

SHOOT REALISTIC TARGETS
In an ideal world, we'd all shoot on reactive 3-D targets but that’s pricey. Instead, make your targets as realistic as possible. For instance, throw a T-shirt over them to make cover the scoring zones. Use different target styles. Mix IDPA, photo-realistic, and steel targets so that shooters are always confronting something different.

SHOOT REACTIVE TARGETS
Here imagination is all important. There are a variety of ways to make targets reactive. I've seen a neat yet simple system involving coat hangers, paper clips and balloons that which I hope to photograph soon. Do you have IDPA targets with their 8" scoring ring shot out (we all do right?). Instead of throwing them away, cut out the 8" circle and insert a balloon. It is plainly obvious when the target is struck and you're still teaching yourself to shoot for an anatomically significant area. This system works really well when you need to determine in which order a shooter engaged targets. This is also a great time to plug steel targets - guess what - pepper poppers are reactive!

SHOOT MOVING TARGETS
There are great systems available for several thousand dollars that will move your targets anyway you want. The problem is most of us can't afford them. So what’s left - be creative! At a Paladin match, a particularly horrible RO took his kid’s Little Red Wagon (I'm serious) and strapped a target stand into bed. He then attached a rope that was pulled (from behind the shooter) by a random lackey and voila - a moving target (and scarred children). I’ve also seen a charging target that was manufactured out of simple materials yet worked great (pictures hopefully to come)

ALTERNATIVE SCORING
Set up a match that is pass/fail. This is an option that really removes the time pressure from shooters. Instead of timing shooters, develop criteria for proper actions that would constitute “living” and “dying.” I shot one match like this and it was amazing how few people survived everything. Another excellent way to force people to shoot good (versus fast) is to change the scoring rings. For instance the standard IDPA scoring is 8" circle -0, next box -1, fringe area -3. This strikes me as very generous. How about: 8" circle -0, next box -2 for major calibers or -3 for minor calibers and -5 for the outermost box. This way not getting good center hits is really penalized and shooting the most powerful weapon you can control is rewarded. Another option I haven't tried but seems promising is the use Comstock scoring. Basically, your time is adjusted for your hits, meaning that fast but less efficient hits aren't rewarded.

BREAK UP THE TIMING OF COURSES OF FIRE
If you're going to use a shot timer, break a course of fire into several stages and time each one separately and then combine the times. For instance, a shooter faces three targets. On the buzzer the shooter draws, engages all three, and then retreats backwards toward cover. Once the shooter is behind cover, generate a second start signal. At the start signal the shooter must perform a tactical reload and then engage additional threats. By doing this a shooters ability to run isn't rewarded. Instead their ability to perform a tactical reload well is rewarded - a huge difference. Also, this more accurately resembles real life, engage threats, retreat, top off, engage more threats - this is just another way to reward “doing right.”

USE DIFFERENT START SIGNALS
Many of us get tuned to reacting to the beep of a shot timer. This is nice but not many attacks are preceded by a warning beep. Especially when shooting man-on-man, use something like "GUN!!!" to start shooters. At Paladin they had a really nasty rule. At times, the RO would yell "Police!!! Don't Move." If you moved, you automatically lost - excellent training for the real world.

SHARE RO/CREATIVE DUTIES
Finally, having to come up with five to seven scenarios each month will rapidly tax even the most creative mind. Don't make one person responsible for all courses of fire at every match. Come up with your own ideas - don't suggest them - but run them. This will give the regular match coordinator a break and give you an entirely new respect for the job.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
JohnH said
--Once the shooter is behind cover, generate a second start signal. At the start signal the shooter must perform a tactical reload and then engage additional threats. By doing this a shooters ability to run isn't rewarded. Instead their ability to perform a tactical reload well is rewarded - a huge difference. Also, this more accurately resembles real life, engage threats, retreat, top off, engage more threats - this is just another way to reward “doing right"--

JohnH

Although I understand your intentions, I have to disagree with this ....I believe "real life" does reward one's ability to run, be it leaving the scene of the threat or retreating or advancing to cover, I believe the time spent getting there is as important as what you do once you get there. Pretty hard to do that Tac reload behind cover if you never get there.........so if you are trying for "reality" the reward for speed should be there. Honestly don't you think the individual that can make it to cover in 2 sec has a better chance at survival than the one that takes 5 secs ???

While I would love to shoot at Sundogs and really like what they are doing, I think people lose sight of the fact that the IDPA is what it is.....and that it is a shooting sport. Any one that expects it to be more than that is sure to be disapointed. Look else where for your tactical training.
Go to IDPA to shoot, have fun with some good people and enjoy yourself.


have fun and be safe,

laters'

gr :cool:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kahana on 2001-09-03 18:47 ]</font>
 
G

·
Well said, in reality Mark Garrity is both a seasoned street cop and very skilled SWAT operator as crediantials and ceritifications go in the LEO field name them and Mark has them, my point is that he does know the difference and I believe this post was intended to gather other peoples thoughts.

His team has been on numerous call outs including one famous run when it was believed that John Dupont may have had and been willing to use the .50 caliber machine guns from the armored personnel carrier he kept on his property against the responding officers on scene to arrest him after he murdered olympic wrestler Dave Shults and barricaded himself on his estate.

Mark's post was tongue in cheek and in all seriousness IDPA is a game, and a good sport, while a lot of people are making a living advertising IDPA as some sort of tactical reality match it is only a game.

That said I believe that a number of people including those that responded are using the game time to work on their real skills and are not concerned with winning or losing the match as long as they win on the street.

This is a good thing.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top