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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How many of you will refuse to make certain modifications to a pistol because even though they would be mechanically safe, they would be risky from a civil liability standpoint?

Example: Suppose that you know how to put a safe, consistent two pound trigger pull on a 1911. Would you put such a trigger on a customer's defense gun if he requested it, or would you refuse to avoid being sued for a shooting involving a "hair trigger"?

Would if make any difference if you knew that the customer was, say, a top-ranked IPSC shooter who fires 10,000+ rounds a year using a pound and a half trigger?
 

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GREAT question :grin:

I have seen the best in the world shoot and on the other hand I have seen the best train.

In a good tactical team a AD will at the least get you deleted from the team. In a match environment the least an AD will get you is a OOOPS!. When a USPSA GM ADs a round there is usually little damage. Not so on the street.

I can do a 2# trigger on demand. I won't do one on a street gun.
Doesn't matter who asks. I know of no one who can actually safetly shoot a 2# trigger who also doesn't know how to do his/her own 2# trigger.

I once had the awkward opportunity to place a 1911 with a 4# trigger into a person's ear while wrestling on a bed. The fight stopped when I snapped the thumb safety off. One of the many things racing through my mind after that incident was 4# wasn't enough trigger.

Latter that night my street gun got a crisp 5# trigger. It might have been more but I still want to take advantage of a 1911 for something besides a contact shot.

I realise that there isn't much difference between 4 and 5#s
under a little stress. I had just snapped of the safety and placed my finger in the trigger....and needed another 1# of preasure for my gun to go off. 5# gives a "little" leeway, 2# gives none.

Now I make a distinct point of not wrestling people with guns involved but the lesson isn't forgotten.

A 3 1/2 to 4# will suite even the very best shooter (GM or not) on the street and is WAY TOO light for a "using/duty". gun IMO.

I am not worried about the liability issue of a "hair trigger". I don't ignore common sense over the hyperbole of the standard liability issues with firearms. Compared to a 12# NY trigger on a Glock, a 5# trigger is "hair". Problem is not with the 5#s, it is with silly titles that have become common place in our culture. "Assualt weapons" and "hair triggers" are two that come to mind. An Assault weapon is a fully automatic weapon and a "hair" trigger was first a "set" trigger which meant to go off with only a few ounces....2 oz or 3 oz is not uncommon.

See the problem?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-05-16 14:37 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Dane,

Thanks for answering at such length.

I once had the awkward opportunity to place a 1911 with a 4# trigger into a person's ear while wrestling on a bed.
I guess we can all make our jokes about the "wrestling on a bed" part. :grin:

I agree with you, although I'm sure you've heard people like Jeff Cooper argue that 3 to 3.5 pounds is appropriate. Their argument is that if you keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot, the weight of the trigger doesn't matter. There are even a few people over at Glock Talk who use this reasoning to justify a 3.5# connector in their carry Glocks.

How about removing the magazine disconnector "safety" from a Hi-Power? IMHO, it's not a very useful safety device and it does impede the trigger pull. I also think that it's actually safer for someone who doesn't have mag safeties on his other firearms because it keeps things simple.

But on the other hand, I can see that disabling a "safety" would look bad to someone (such as a juror) who wasn't a shooter.
 

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On 2001-05-16 14:22, Matt VDW wrote:

But on the other hand, I can see that disabling a "safety" would look bad to someone (such as a juror) who wasn't a shooter.
I will not talk about pinned grip safeties......I will not talk about pinned grip safeties.....I will not talk about pinned grip safeties.......I will not........... :wink:
 

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I will not talk about pinned grip safeties

Weenie :grin:

Besides this is the "mag safety". Whole different story right:)

Let me start off. No one in the right mind would ever use NOT use a mag safety, a grip safety and at the least a 5 # trigger. Anything else is just flatly unsafe and certain death and disfigurement , life in prison and death in civil court. That cover it? Naw, I forgot, it is blantantly stupid to disconnect any safety device on a hand gun.

That dang gum J. M. Browning! He sure causes a lot of trouble. I am switching to Aldolpho's or Gaston's blasters :grin:

:grin:
 

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You know, Dane, flowers and some soft words are often more successful in bedroom encounters than a .45 in the ear.

I'll refrain from any comments about shooting blanks, going off half-cocked, etc. Really, I will refrain.
 

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On 2001-05-17 08:10, buzz_knox wrote:
You know, Dane, flowers and some soft words are often more successful in bedroom encounters than a .45 in the ear.

I'll refrain from any comments about shooting blanks, going off half-cocked, etc. Really, I will refrain.
How's 'bout HARD chrome! :grin: :grin: :grin:
 

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Uggh. I didn't want to think about that, or alternative meanings for such items as:

"Black T"
"hair trigger" (you know, there are techniques for fixing that)
"shok buffs"
"night sites" (to use the 'net spelling)
"full capacity" versus "reduced capacity"
etc, etc.
 

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On another note, how many 'smiths out there will not work on a pistol that has been through another gunsmith's hands? I've read disclaimers on a couple of gunsmith sites and catalogs that say that they absolutely will not touch a gun that another 'smith has worked on.

Any thoughts. If I've had my pistol worked on by my local gunsmith and I screwed if I want Dane/Dick/Jim/Larry/whoever to fix it up?

Chad
 

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On 2001-05-17 15:25, buzz_knox wrote:
Uggh. I didn't want to think about that, or alternative meanings for such items as:

"Black T"
"hair trigger" (you know, there are techniques for fixing that)
"shok buffs"
"night sites" (to use the 'net spelling)
"full capacity" versus "reduced capacity"
etc, etc.
Buzz, you neglected the ever popular "full length guide rod" :wink:
 

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I used a competition oriented smith to build my
dream custom Colt. When I got it back, he had
a 2.8 pound trigger on it. I insisted we check it before
I took it home. Told him I wanted four pounds because
it was my carry pistol. He made it right on the spot.
It wasn't his fault. He knew me as a competative shooter.
I had failed to make clear that this was to be set up as
a street gun.

For my needs, I think four pounds on a 1911 is sufficient.
I would like to hear more from advanced shooters on the
subject of even heavier trigger pulls.
I have a Browning HiPower that had, I swear, a sixteen
pound pull. Removed the magazine safety and that helped.
Had the same smith "pray" over the gun. It is now shootable.
At what point (pull weight) have we crossed the line between
safety and shootability?
 

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Is a heavier trigger "safer" that a lighter one? Is a four pound trigger twice as safe as a two pound trigger? It seems to me that it would be difficult to make a pistol's trigger pull heavy enough to resist mishandling without rendering the pistol awfully difficult to shoot well. How heavy would a trigger pull have to be to resist a "startle response" by a user who had his finger on the trigger?

Rosco
 
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