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Here in Spain I´ve seen how several Walther P-99 have got malfunctions when the operator have leave the slide go ahead to feed the first round in the chamber, staying it a few milimeters before its complete locked.

Another malfunction I´ve seen is produced (I supose this is the reason) when the operator is not keeping a good grip, so the slide doesn´t go back enough to get ejecting the cartridge shot.
Have you also detected this malfunctions there?

[PeterL: edited post topic as requested]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Loron on 2001-06-20 14:27 ]</font>
 
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German,
I am very suprised as the P99 has a reputation with "operators" as being the pistol Glock should have made.

"Experts" like Jim Grover have opined that the P99 is superior even to the G19.

I have an OD military model that feeds and runs like a champ, I use only +P+ ammo in 9mm so that could be why?

I do know that Walther and Sig both recomend only NATO spec 124gr ammo and do not recomend 115gr ammo.
 

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Strange problem I have never encounterd on numerous P99's I have shot.

Have you tried cleaning it.

Or maybe your putting the cartridges in the wrong way round, this can cause the same problems your describing.

Seriously though, take the thing to a pistolsmith, get it sorted, and you'll be laughing - they're great guns.
 

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I am sorry but I haved owned a P99 and I can tell you I am glad Glock did not make this pistol or they would be out of buisness. Why do you think they lowered the price. It was to try to get some poor suckers to buy this piece of crap jamamatic. The one I had had constant problems with the slide locking open prematurely. The previous owner said he sent it to walther and they replaced the slide lock spring and it fixed the problem. Well it did only for a few hundred rounds then the problem showed up again. I replaced the spring and it ran for a few hundred rounds agian and then started again. I hate this pistol it also has more muzzle flip than it should and its trigger sucks. Don't buy this pistol. It will be pulled from the market soon enough I believe.
PAT
 

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PAT,

I realize you had a less than satisfactory experience with your P99, but you sound somewhat rabid in your reply. Relax a little, please, and I mean that in a friendly way. Your posts are usually a little more thoughtful ...

When we started to T&E some SW99 pistols, in .40 S&W & 9mm, we also started to occasionally experience the premature activation of the slide stop in the .40 S&W pistol. After issuing some, this problem continued to surface at unpredictable times.

After eliminating the possibility of the shooter's thumb riding just under the slide stop, we were left with a puzzle. I examined a couple of slide stops in pistols, and observed some jacketing on the tip of the slide stop protrusion. It appeared the slide stop was being hit by the bullet noses. I resolved the problem in a couple of personally owned pistols by adjusting the length of the slide stop protrusion into the magazine. But this problem shouldn’t occur in the first place, right?

Well, after enough similar instances occurred, S&W started examining it. The slide stop spring was looked at as being light, and a heavier one was tried. This didn’t solve the problem to the satisfaction of S&W.

Eventually, using high-speed video, S&W discovered the cause of the problem. During firing, recoil forces caused the 3rd round down in the magazine to “wiggle” while it moved upward during the recoil cycle. This allowed the bullet, depending on the ogive, to occasionally hit the slide stop protrusion, and resulted in the engagement of the slide stop. As an interesting side note, it was discovered during the research that this phenomenon was more likely to occur to left handed shooters. Something about the way recoil harmonics are propagated through the pistol’s frame, and the pressure generated on the grip frame by left-handed shooters …

They approached Walther with their research, who finally agreed to take it to Mec Gar, who finally agreed to change the design of the 12-round magazine. The new 12-round L/E magazines have a rectangular, vertical flat indentation in the left side of the magazine body, just to the rear of the slide stop cutout. This prevents the involved rounds from moving to the left during the recoil cycle while they’re moving upward.

This has never become an issue with the “civilian legal” 10-round magazines. Something about the overall length of the magazine tube in which the spring compresses and decompresses, and the length of the shorter 10-round magazine spring & its strength, was just different enough so that this problem wasn't being seen in the 10-rounders. Whatever the reason, it seems only the 12-round magazines were affected.

Another L/E agency that uses .40 SW99’s experienced some broken base pads … after dropping them onto the concrete floor of their training range. Imagine that … S&W decided a slightly stronger L/E 12-round magazine base pad was needed.

Personally, while I carry the 12-round L/E magazines for L/E use, I prefer the 10-round magazines. A primary reason I like the 10-round magazines is because they have a very thick & sturdy plastic base pad. This makes the practice of dropping them during training less of an issue. They're also easily available, and 2 less rounds just doesn't bother me that much ... 11 rounds vs. 13 ...

Another magazine improvement was the deletion of the original “cheese grater” magazine spring base plate, so nick-named by someone because of the way it affected the plastic base pads under extended use. The original metal base plate had a pressed indentation in it that fit into a hole in the base pad, securing the base pad to the magazine body. During extended firing it was found that the sharp edges of this metal indentation would start cutting into the plastic base pad hole, and it could become elongated. This could result in base pads that became less than securely fastened to the magazine body. The new parts use a round post to fit into the hole in the base pad.

As a side benefit of this attention and research, a couple other benefits have been realized. The extractors are now factory polished. The bottom of the hook was found to catch on the angled shoulder of the case head of one particular ammunition manufacturer’s “budget” contract line of ammunition. The locking blocks are “dressed” a little “smoother”, especially on the rear beveled angled surface. In the S&W produced barrels there’s a new cut on the bottom of the barrels that allows the barrel to more easily clear the recoil spring assembly during unlocking. It also changes the position of the barrel during unlocking & locking, and helps the slide & barrel go forward into battery easier.

As one of my armorer certifications is for the SW99/P99 Series of pistols, and I carry one that has had a lot of rounds fired through it, I have a passing familiarity with the design. I’m confident the design is a sound one. The trigger is a subjective preference, but for duty issue I’m satisfied with a 12lb DA & 6lb SA pull.

It’s not at all unusual for a weapon design to experience “teething pains” during the first few years of its introduction in the marketplace. Walther isn’t the first or only manufacturer to experience this, and it won’t be the last. If you were to make a list of all of the “upgraded”, “enhanced” & “redesigned” parts of the Glock series of pistols, it would probably scare the daylights out of someone unfamiliar with the quality of the current production models.

The Walther P99 series, and its S&W licensed version, will probably be with us for some time to come, as it’s a sound design. It’ll probably continue to benefit from minor upgrades and enhanced parts … like the Glock … And thereby become a more refined pistol … like the Glock … And gain an increasing share of the public and L/E markets … like the Glock …. And gain fans from both markets … like the Glock … And introduce more new models, in new sizes and calibers … like the Glock …. And besides, Walther isn’t exactly a new kid on the block when it comes to designing weapons, and the name has earned respect in the firearms world for a reason.

The 99 design does, however, have a couple of immediate advantages. First, the grip frame shape and size can be modified by the user, and made to fit almost any size hand. In a time where Disparate Impact lawsuits are affecting L/E agencies, especially involving pistol grip size, this is a desirable feature.

Second, the takedown of the DA/SA 99 doesn’t require the operator to pull the trigger. Have you kept up on the number of cops that have failed to properly unload their Glocks, and when they pulled the trigger to take them down there was still a loaded round in the chamber? True, this isn’t a “design deficiency” of the Glock, but a training issue. (Civilians who spend their own hard earned money may spend more attention on their pistols, and their manual of arms, than the cops that are issued a piece of “safety equipment” and who may have little, if any, interest in it.) But in a time where agencies would rather “issue” safety, than “train” their staff, this may become an increasingly favorable feature.

Would you be willing to try another 99 pistol when the .357SIG models are released?;)

Take care PAT …
 

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ACME-I'll jump in. I have a P99 Military Green in 9mm. So far it has digested about 2000rounds and never had any sort of malfunction or miscue. I used 16round mags and none failed. I find it to be a very comfortable weapon to shoot and would not hesitate to carry it.

Pat, I have seen other posts by you on other forums where you deride the respective guns while touting your Glock. I admit that the Glock is a viable weapon(I own 8), however,I would not feel comfortable carrying one. My choice. You have yours. Please do not impose your beliefs upon someone else. As for Glock, it has had design changes because of malfunctions and used the mask of "upgrade" to achieve it. This also corresponds to magazines also.
 

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ACME,

The 9mm pistols have been real gems ... The very first SW99 in 9mm we started testing was fired right out of the box without cleaning or lubricating, and we logged over 1200 absolutely trouble-free rounds through it before we started to feel guilty about not even running a patch through the barrel once ...

We fired it some more and then finally ran a patch through the barrel, put a couple of more drops of oil on it, and then fired the daylights out of it some more. It may not have been our weapon, but we did feel somewhat guilty about not cleaning it ...

I know a retired L/E firearms instructor that still has his hand in a local academy. He uses a SW99 in 9mm as a loaner for cadets that have problems with their weapons. He gets a kick out of boasting that it won't malfunction on anyone he's ever handed it to ... The most recent student couldn't get her SIG to function reliably. Most likely a shooter induced problem, all things considered, according to him. Anyway, he gave her his 99 and she finished the course without another single malfunction ... firing over 500 rounds through an unfamiliar weapon without having any further problems.

I know a couple other guys that have had similar experiences ... One of them just won't clean his pistol with any regularity because it "functions so reliably even without cleaning" ... which is another problem altogether. ;)

The magazine issue with the .40 was apparently just one of those fluky things that sometimes pops up, and only with the .40 magazines ... the weight of the bullets, the silly extra millimeter of diameter, the stout recoil of the high pressure round ... all coming together to cause a never-before seen problem ... that didn't occur in every pistol, or to everyone ...

We thought it was great how 3 separate manufacturers worked together so well, and so quickly, to resolve the problem ...
 

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I realize you had a less than satisfactory experience with your P99, but you sound somewhat rabid in your reply. Relax a little, please, and I mean that in a friendly way. Your posts are usually a little more thoughtful ...
END

I wrote the post after a recent range visit with the P99. Which is no longer mine. After fixing it for the 2nd time I sold it. I thought it was fixed. I took the new owner out again for some shooting lessons. He is the evidence custodian in my department and I am one of the firearms instructors. Anyway the problem surfaced again. I tried to get him to try different hold to see if his thumb was hitting the release. The problem was sporatic. You should not have to change your grip to use a inferror grip to make a pistol work. Glocks have had some teething problems but nothing like this. They have ran well from the start. I am not attempting to tell others what to shoot. I personallly realize after shooting many brands of guns that glocks are the best going right now. Thats my oppinion but it seems to be shared by over 70% of leo's around the nation. Now I respect many different gun types out there. Sigs, Beretta's, other Walthers, Hk's and 1911's are all good pistols. I doubt the Walther will make a serious in road if they continue to have serious reliability issues like this. If they have fixed it great. Also the mags in question are both leo 12 round mags and 10 round civilian mags.
PAT
 

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PAT,

That's the thoughtful kind of post I've come to recognize from you ...

Although ... where we'll probably disagree is where you said you shouldn't have to change your grip on a pistol to an inferior grip to make it work. You didn't proof-read what you wrote, did you? And I'm not talking about the typos ... ;)

Skipping past the not-so-subtle bait regarding the definition of whatever an "inferior" grip might be ...

Of course you have to change your grip sometimes when your change weapon platforms. I grew up shooting SA revolvers, and then using high thumb hold on Colt .45 ACP's ... which doesn't work on several other pistols, depending on the grip/hand size relationship involved, especially DA/SA designs. I later changed to a more or less neutral thumb position. Not as radical as Enos' hold, but enough to make it work with almost any DA/SA pistol design I might come across in our work.

When Glocks arrived, I discovered what a lot of later Glock shooters discovered ... and are still discovering from time to time, according to some of the other folks on Glock Talk. Sometimes the middle/neutral thumb position came too close to either the slide stop, bumping it upward into slide-lock, or it dragged on the slide, causing a problem with slide velocity. Darn those thumb shields that were so easy to install and use in a "lazy" manner on 1911's ... Sloppy habits develop so easily. Time to change my grip again ... How many times did I read that line being used by sport competitors?

By the way, my introduction to one of the early G17's wasn't the best, either. It wouldn't reliably feed, chamber and fire the standard Winchester 115gr Silver Tip, and the trigger was what might be charitably called "military grade" ... but that's what glock was trying to sell to the public at that time, now that his military contract was concluded ...

I've watched a very experienced & trained cop engage the slide stop of a 99 with his support hand's thumb ... all the while swearing he never touched it. He used a cross-over thumb hold. Not something I'd train someone to do, or recommend, but it worked for him for many years, even during Swat training with his other pistols. He changed his thumb position and the problem went away.

I understand how he felt, though, as once when I was first shooting the 99's ... while recovering from an injury which affected my support hand, particularly my thumb and index finger ... I wasn't able to control my support thumb as well as I wanted. I made sure it was way out away from the slide, just to keep it away from the pistol. During shooting I experienced a couple of premature slide stop engagements. I blamed it on the magazines, or the pistol in general, and kept shooting. Suddenly I felt a sharp pain in the tip of my support thumb, which was way out to the side the last I knew. Checking it, I found I'd cut it on the slide stop. The muzzle rise and whip of the .40 S&W round was just enough to make me move my thumb more than I'd realized ... certainly more than when I fired my other pistols, which were either 9mm's or .45's. Hmmm ...

That made me a little more sympathetic to those shooters that swore they weren't touching their slide stops, even though I watched it happen at times. Heck, during one CCW class I watched a man punch the magazine release button with his support hand thumb during recoil ... a few times. He was annoyed as all get out that his magazine kept falling out while he was trying to qualify. We discussed changing his thumb placement, and for the rest of the course the problem didn't reoccur. He'd been shooting that pistol for years, and shooting it well. He just had this grip issue to resolve, and didn't realize it. He had more patience with the pistol than I would have had, since he blamed it on some quirk of the pistol.

As trainers and armorers, we realize ... and experience firsthand ... that about 97% of all pistol malfunctions are shooter induced. I can't remember the exact statistics the Glock armorer folks like to quote in their classes, but if I think it's something along the lines of it's the shooter 95% of the time, the ammunition 3% of the time, and the pistol 2% of the time ... something like that ... Nice of them to admit it's the pistol at least 2 times out of 100. :) Relax, just joking ...

The latest .40 S&W 12-round magazine, with the modification, should resolve the slide stop issue for most shooters ... unless something else is happening when they shoot their pistols. While I've experienced the problem with the original 12-round magazines quite a few times ... LOTS of rounds downrange ... I've never been able to get the 10-round magazines to do it in my hands. When I asked the S&W L/E rep about it during the last 99 update class, he said the factory also hadn't found the problem occurring in the 10-round magazines during their research, either, just in the 12-round magazines ... and not with any great frequency, or in all of them. Some of them have been working just fine. But once the involved manufacturers discovered the potential problem, they decided to address the issue and change the magazine design for the 12-rounders, anyway ...

By the way, expect to see a stainless steel magazine body for the 99 series at some time in the future, at least in the SW99 series, if not both ... about time, don't you think?

Last time I tried to keep up on it, the G21 pistol was using the 4th "generation" of magazine designs, wasn't it? And that doesn't count the mandated 10-rounders ... or the follower, spring, spring guide, or base pad/floorplate "upgrades" ...

That doesn't mean the G21 is a "problem" pistol. It just means Glock is trying their best to improve the design as it requires it ... and that's a good thing for all of us.

Things happen PAT ...

relax, we're on the same side, you know ...
 

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fastbolt
I teach people to use the thumbs along the frame of the pistol hold just like IPSC shooters. It natural to asume and provides good recoil control. I don't like teaching tucking the thumb under the support hand it provides less recoil control and that little P99 is wippy with muzzle flip with full power 165 grian ammo. Anyway I hope they fix the problem.
PAT
 

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Time to eat crow. Had my friend try another friends new walther mags with blue follower and the locking slide problem disappeared. Thanks for the help and sorry for the blasting. Was getting very irritated with Walther glad they fixed the problem.
PAT
 
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