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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I started this thread over at 1911Forum, who knows what happened there.

With the new rule book now posted over at the IDPA wed site, http://www.idpa.com , 10mm and .400 Corbon are now in the gamer class of ESP with the wimpy 9mm's. CDP now belongs to .45 ACP alone.

...From the new IDPA Rule book,
Handguns permitted for ENHANCED SERVICE PISTOL division must be Single Action or selective SA/DA and be of 9mm (9x19), (9x21), (9x23), .38 Super, .357 Sig, .40 S&W, .41 AE, 10mm Norma, .400 Cor-Bon....

Handguns permitted for the CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL division must be .45 ACP caliber....
For some reason, someone on the IDPA BoD thinks that a firebreathing monster of full house 10mm is equal to the recoil of gamer 9mm and .38 Super. The min. power factor for ESP is 125. I looked a few factory loading for 10mm and the lowest was 207. Even a mild 10mm will launch a 180 faster than a 9mm will a 115.

I sent an email to IDPA HQ requesting info as to why this was done. I was told I had to sent in a real letter by snail mail. So I did.

IDPA Board of Directors June 14, 2001
C/O Tom King
Member Service
IDPA
2232 CR 719
Berryville, AR 72616

Dear Sirs,

It is my understanding that there are to be rule changes that will move the caliber of 10mm from the CDP division into the ESP division. And also that the CDP division will be for .45ACP chambered pistols only.

Here are some of my reasons for questioning this action. I have investigated factory new loaded 10mm ammunition from both Winchester and Remington and factory reloaded ammunition from Georgia Arms. The Winchester has a PF of 225000, the Remington's is 207000, and Georgia Arms is 198000. All are with 180gr bullets. That is far above the power floor of 125000 required for ESP. As a reference, Georgia Arms lists its 115gr 9mm at 1150 fps for a power factor of 132250.

By moving the 10mm caliber to ESP, the new ruling is essentially removing the possibility of anyone using factory 10mm ammunition in competition. The whole premise of using power floors is to insure that the divisions are a more or less equal recoil impulse. The minimum power floors insure that shooters using factory ammunition are not at any disadvantage with respect to those who use custom loaded ammunition. How can someone using a 10mm in a Colt Delta compete on an equal footing with someone using a Colt 1991 in 9mm?

The 10mm is ideally suited to be in CDP. Commercially available ammunition and the pistols that handle it, i.e., Colt 1911’s and other custom built 1911’s, are on a par with .45ACP chambered single action pistols. Winchester lists .45ACP with a 230gr FMJ at a muzzle velocity of 835 fps with a power factor of 192500.

Isn't the point of IDPA to use production pistols and ammo in real life self defense scenarios? Isn't it supposed to be equipment neutral? If we do not want competitors with .45's in the same class as 9mm, why is 10mm, which is more powerful than a .45 with factory ammunition, to be grouped with them?

I can only surmise why this ruling was made. It is quite easy to hand load the .40 S&W to the 165000 PF required in CDP. I know. I have a .40 S&W Caspian single stack and I am very competitive with it in ESP. By tuning my ammunition, I could reach the minimum power factor required in CDP with no signs of pressure. I imagine there has been some pressure to allow the use of .40 S&W chambered pistols into the CDP division.

The present rules for ESP and CDP work, .40 caliber and below with a minimum power factor of 125000 in ESP and .40 caliber and above with a power floor of 165000 in CDP. I would respectfully ask that the rule moving 10mm to ESP be modified to allow it in CDP as well as long as the minimum power factor ammunition is used.

Respectfully yours,

John A. Forsyth
A02199
Will post any reply I receive.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Forsyth on 2001-06-19 12:07 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Forsyth on 2001-06-19 12:29 ]</font>
 

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What a weird move on the BOD's part. I don't get this at all. The 10mm has no place in ESP competing against 9mms.

I shoot a BHP.40 in ESP, and I have a tough time keeping up with the soft-shooting 9s and 38Supers. I can't imagine trying it with a 10mm. The 10mm's rightful place is in CDP -- single action pistols over .40 caliber.

Hell, I'd even push to move the .40 to CDP and make the 165 power factor -- it would certainly keep the gaming to a minimum.

Another consideration is classification. If you take a look at the classifier times for ESP you'll note that they are far more stringent than for any other division. It's tougher to make SS, EX or M in ESP -- probably because the BOD envisioned this as the 9mm class. Imposing those times on someone shooting a 10mm is going to keep a lot of folks from moving up in classification.

Makes no sense to me.

Chad
 

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I personally would like to see the PF set at 180. That is only a 230 gr. bullet at 785FPS, pretty much of softball load. I think the PF is set much too low. It is supposed to represent self defense shooting, at least use ball standards in the ammo.

I agree, if you have a 10mm with a high PF in a SA auto, run it in CDP.
 

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I agree with a 165 power factor. I know the reason the Single Stack Classic has always used it is because you can make the power factor using factory ball in an Officer's length gun. That to me would fall in line with IDPA and their claim of a level playing field since it is supposed to simulate self-defense scenarios.

I think they should have left it alone as compared to what they have done. Now, when will they change the mag capacity to 10 rounds in CDP???
 

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It would seem to me that the BOD owes the members an explaination. I as a member spend alot of time and money to compete in IDPA. I also put together a 10mm and as my handle indicates I love the 10mm round. I also shoot a 45 in CDP and a 9x23 in ESP. The 10mm works well in the CDP but I have to question the loading of the 10mm down to a 125,000 power factor. That isn't where the 10mm was designed to function. Does anyone see any danger in running a cartridge that was designed to run well over the 200pf level?
 

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The ten might well function at a 125-135 pf, but I don’t know if the gun will short of a 15 lb mainspring and 8 lb recoil spring.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I doubt that you could get a 10mm case to seal at the 125-135 PF range. I am shooting a .40 in ESP at ~140 PF. These same loads in a friends 610 hardly seal the cylinder and blacken the cases. In my 1911 with a Nowlin barrel, which is pretty tight, they sometimes do not seal the chamber fully. I am using a Wilson reduced power mainspring and a 14# recoil spring. Drops all my brass in a neat little pile at about 3 feet. A very low pressure loading. For a 125PF and a 180gr bullet we are only talking 700 fps.

Bottom line is, would you carry a 10mm loaded with ammo having a 180gr going 700 fps or one going 1150fps? We are supposed to be simulating real world, correct? The IDPA BoD owes us an explanation, they may not amend the rule, but they need to tell us their reasoning.
 

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IDPA is all screwed up.

"The goal is to compete with 'service type' ammunition, not light target ammunition..."

"If you are caught using equipment that is not in the guide-lines set forth and not in spirit of Defensive Pistol 'PURPOSE', and the Match Director is convinced you did so to gain competitive advantage, you will be disqualified from the entire match."

So under IDPA rules, by down loading your 10mm service ammo to a light target ammo, you are gaining a competitve advantage and should be disqualified right?

IPSC is so much simpler.
 

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This is right from the opening of the new rule book on the IDPA website

Purpose:


Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.

"FULL CHARGE SERVICE AMMUNITION" I guess we were all overloading our 10mm's. Wouldn't a down loaded 10mm be a "competition only" kind of set-up. Who would use it for self defense in the real world? I think I'll shoot the Nationals with my 10mm in CDP before the rule goes into effect.
 

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There is no rule preventing using loads that are over the factor is there? So just use what you like even if it's over the factor. You choose a 10 because you like it right? Not for a competitive advantage I hope.

JJ
 

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You can load above power factor.

Here's the problem, imagine two identical 1911's, one built for 9mm and one for 10mm. Both shooting factory ammo. The 10mm would be harder to control recoil when compared with the 9. The first IDPA principle is "To create a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and the ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship." 9's and 10's are not on the same playing field. Neither is a 3.5# trigger Glock belonging in SSP with DA/SA guns that have a 10# DA. Or my favorite HK P7M8 got bumped into ESP even though the 3.5# trigger Glock have a shorter and lighter trigger pull.

I think the IDPA board are biased towards Glock and single stack 1911 45's. Essentially they dumped any guns that shoot faster than a Glock and that is not a 45 into ESP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
JJ,

...You choose a 10 because you like it right? Not for a competitive advantage...
The reason I am upset about the move of 10mm to ESP has more to do with my wallet than competitive advantage. I have a 1911 single stack in .40 S&W. I have invested in 10mm mags, reloading equipment, and a barrel assembly in 10mm. All ready to go to a pistol that can shoot in two divisions with a simple barrel and recoil spring change. All legal under the old rules. What's the point now of having a pistol that can fire two different rounds if they are both in the same division?

How come 10mm shooters do not get a two year by on the rule change like the revolver shooters did with 5in N-frames? What's the next rule change? "Full moon clip N-frame S&W's are gammer guns and are no longer allowed in IDPA compitition. The same goes for G34 and G35's. No one carries these either for CCW." Is this where we are headed?

_________________
John
"And by the way, Mr. Speaker, The Second Amendment is not for killing ducks .... It is for hunting politicians like (in) Grozney and in 1776, when they take your independence away". Robert K. Dornen, U.S. Congressman. 1995

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: John Forsyth on 2001-06-21 10:46 ]</font>
 

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On 2001-06-21 10:43, John Forsyth wrote:

How come 10mm shooters do not get a two year by on the rule change like the revolver shooters did with 5in N-frames? What's the next rule change? "Full moon clip N-frame S&W's are gammer guns and are no longer allowed in IDPA compitition. The same goes for G34 and G35's. No one carries these either for CCW." Is this where we are headed?
The two year rule is for equipment changes while rule changes can happen at the whim of the bod. My theory is the BOD does not consider a change of division an "equipment change" because no hardware was banned/permitted in the making of this division change. They just changed the "rules" to put the gun into a different division. Kinda like range lawyering in reverse.

Ted
 

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Strange, I kinda consider the gun equipment. Anything I can touch is equipment.

This change is going to piss a lot of people off. The last IDPA match I went to, its all people talked about.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

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If IDPA is going to chronograph ammo to check the power factor anyway, why not classify pistols by power instead of caliber?

The divisions could be:

Light recoil, light trigger
Heavy recoil, light trigger
Light recoil, heavy trigger
Heavy recoil, heavy trigger
Revolver

Just a thought.
 

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Well heck! Seems there is more going on then just the revolver bbl length these days eh?

My take on this is tha that it is bogus. Just looked at the IDPA web site and it still lists the old rules.

As far as I am concerned if a shooter wants to shoot a 10 in CDP they can. Reason - Web site lists old rules. Want to change something, start with the web site. Not everyone has a new rule book. So until the rule changes get out to the masses, I would say shoot the 10 in CDP.

We had a few members join last month. Think I'll check and see what their rule book says and which one is still being sent out.

Besides, do what you want at your local matches.

sb
 

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As of 0842 hrs CDT, Friday 22 June, the IDPA site shows "IDPA Equipment & Competition Rule Book Updated 5-2-2001" and says "Handguns permitted for the CUSTOM DEFENSIVE PISTOL division must be .45 ACP caliber..."
New members and clubs are getting the new green book.
 

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The way I see it, IDPA BOD is made up of a couple of gunsmiths. They happen to produce single stack 1911 in 45's. CDP is now their exclusive club.

Besides the 10mm/400 Corbon deal, they also have moved a gun out of SSP into ESP. Strange huh, a gun that has been in SSP for a long time is now classified as ESP. The gun is the HK P7 series. It's not like it's a new gun, it's been around for a quarter of a century. I wouldn't consider it a single action gun because you have to apply 12# to the squeeze cocker to cock the gun before you can fire it. But the BOD decided that it should be in ESP. I guess they realize that the P7 is a superior gun to use in competition than the Glocks, so move it into ESP along with everything else.

Under the same rule of thinking, P7 has a single action trigger, I think almost all Glocks should be moved to ESP also. The P7 trigger is from 4# to 6# and has a total travel of about 0.5". Glock can have trigger as low as 3.5# and has a shorter travel and yet it can be shot in SSP. I think it is a equipment advantage with the Glock with a 3.5# trigger. It's not fair for those shooting a DA/SA gun that have 10# DA first shot to compete against a 3.5# trigger.

It's obvious that IDPA BOD is biased towards Glocks and single stack 1911 in 45's. If it's better, it gets moved to ESP.

I like what IPSC guys refer to IDPA, I Don't Practice Anymore.
 

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On 2001-06-21 20:18, Tom Freeman wrote:
Strange, I kinda consider the gun equipment.
They bumped guns into different divisions before (eg: P7 to ESP) , this is just the first time it really made headlines.

At my SO seminar, I was told they meant "equipment " as to actual matters of hardware; what gun and modifications were to be permitted to be used or not used, etc. Matters like the assignment of divisions was a rule matter, and not subject to the 2 year rule.

Geez, it sounds like I'm their apologist :sad:

I'm not as interested in the "how" of the rule change, it's the "why" that's bugging me.

Ted
 
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