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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Since our agency authorized O.C. spray several years ago, I have had excellent results with its application. Has anyone had any BAD experiences with O.C., other than being sprayed with it by yourself/partner? :grin::
 

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No problems. It's a good first step in a low-risk, low-anxiety encounter. If the risk and anxiety escalate, second step would be a good whack from the baton. Third step is usually a little more serious. :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanx for the reply!

Well, our folks trust us with machine guns, but not with complex weapons like sticks. (Go figure.)

Anyway, I have always followed up an O.C. application with a simple PPCT or similar take down and speedcuff, and have never had any problems.

I want to see how many folks have had similar, or contradictory results with OC.
 

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As to getting exposed by OC, Vince O'Neill of Oklahoma CLEET (their academy) does a class for IALEFI RTCs where he exposes instructors to OC and they have to respond with verbal commands, moving to a firing point and engaging targets. He's doing the class at the Amarillo RTC in a few weeks.

He got tired of people training with OC by getting exposed, then escorted to a water source. So many of our guys are exposed, they can't just quit to decon, they have to complete the arrest. It's a good class.

Rich
 

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We've used Bodyguard 5% for the past several years. We've had good results. County Police use Punch which also seems effective.

I haven't had as much succcess with the DECON or other decontamination products.

Be safe and keep the wind at your back.
 

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Oz,

We use BodyGuard 5% rated at 2 million SHU. When applied properly, it works great. We have found that the troops don't always give the perp a 2-3 sec burst. Often it has been a quick squirt and then they wonder why the magic does not work.

The other problem we had came from a management decision not to spray our officers during training. A few of our guys have paniced when hit by the back spray.

Still, the number of officers injuried in confrontations has dropped substantially since we adopted OC. Also, we almost never have an ASP useage anymore and when we do, it is a followup to OC.

Stay Safe,

Rob
 

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We have had pretty good luck with Punch II. One thing I wish everyone in the fight would remember: If you hit a guy solid in the target zone, and it don't work, the answer IS NOT more OC! You need to escalate to the next level. More OC only disables your buddies.
 

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Our doctrine is that if the suspect has not reacted to two on-target OC deployments, the pepper is probably not going to work. The officer should then transition to another option.

We also discourage heavy OC deployment. Emptying the bottle will tend to create a washout effect. Rather than hitting the suspect with aerosol, you're essentially soaking him in liquid. Most of the liquid will end end up on skin or clothing. While you'll still have some effect on the suspect's eyesight, repiratory effects are less likely to occur.

Be safe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So if there is a "Two Times" rule for apllication of OC, how frequently has this happened?

I guess what I am asking is who has applied OC properly with little or no result? (Sans spraying themselves/other officers!)

And Rob - I know what it is like to have management not let us spray guys in OC class. That what happens when your managers adhere to the principle of "Leadership by cowardice."
 

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Chris, I have used OC on two occasions, both times it only escalated the situation to where a liberal application of ASP was required. On one particular individual, I ended up using almost a full can and the only effect was him getting more pissed off. OC hurts, and it makes it hard to see and breath very well, but it doesn't do shit to stop a determined individual, IMHO. If they're close enough to OC, then they're close enough to hurt you without the need for perfect vision.

I've been OC'd over a dozen times in training and I'm simply not impressed with any type of OC. Some brands are far "hotter", but none of them will prevent an attack, IMHO.

On the flip side, I've found it a real bitch to deal with a guy covered in OC. Yuck.

Time spent using OC is time wasted, IMHO.

I'm a big fan of impact weapons, although in some LE settings this can be a big hassle.

Some knowledgeable guys really like OC, so what do I know? YMMV :smile:
 

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In my experience, most subjects sprayed with OC are significantly impaired. Of course, we need to train for that percentage upon whom OC has little or no effect.

We adopted the two spray recommendation after several years experience with OC. In adopting this protocol, we referred to a 1994 study conducted by the Portland (ME) PD which seemed consistent with our experience. This study examined 226 OC deployments by Portland officers.

Portland reported an average of 1.2 sprays was required to control a suspect (one burst in 182 incidents, two bursts in thirty-nine). There were six incidents in which a subject was hit with more than two bursts. In five of these cases, the spray was still ineffective. It's out belief that, if you've hit the subject twice without effect, the spray will probably not work on this particular occasion.

Portland officers considered OC effective 85% of the time. If one eliminates mechanical problems with the canister, possible misses, medical cases, and incidents in which officers could or did not give OC time to work, the success rate would be 97%. Whichever percentage (if either) one accepts, there are still a percentage of people who will need to be taken down by other means.

It's also part of our training that OC is not a replacement for the baton, the taser, the firearm, or the flashlight. Be safe.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jnc36rcpd on 2001-12-28 11:48 ]</font>
 
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