[abnranger]

The racegun topic made me think. If I were going to spend $2K+ on a firearm, my choice for all round rifle is still a M1A as it a 308Win. and is capable of high degrees of accuracy. It is a good rifle for hunting; unfortunately in PA-no semi-rifles. In a rifle weight is not a major concern; unless the only reason it is purchased to play three gun.

Just can't see spending that kind of money on a toy like a pistol that has no real purpose except on a match field. Even the money spent on these so called ARs for "Tactical" and three gun matches; they are nothing more than Race ARs as are these highly specialized shotguns used for ISPC three gun. The same goes for shotguns with dot sights, ported 26" barrels with extended mag tubes.

Let's think about this, what's the longest range of a rifle shot in an IPSC 3gun? I am going to venture 100m(save the SOF), a box AR will hammer an A zone at that distance no sweat; for that matter so will a new AK. They will do it for a lot less than a race AR.

This is one of the reasons that IDPA has grown so fast. You can come out and have fun, improve your firearms handling skills, use a firearm that doesn't cost more than a house payment, and get to hang with your buds.

Having shot both IPSC and IDPA over the last twelve years, it is easy to see why IDPA has grown. It is really more than just the cost of gear. IPSC has become just to damn driven by an elist attitude, not just against IDPA but to the point of; "I can't believe you shoot a Para, that's old tech", (FWIW I shoot nothing but SS 1911s), you need XYZ launch platform its faster, etc., in many cases the RO's even have that Im a USPSA-RO, CRO, RM and you are the shooter. It really sends lots of new shooters packing.

This is not just my opinion, but a number of pistol plumbers have gotten out of the race pistol business. Reason, and this is from a number of places; IPSC shooters are a pain in the ass, and they are constantly wanting to tinker with the work XYZ did, change the load so it is "softer", and the pistol doesn't run. That seems to be why there a number of places left that build IPSC pisotls; EGW, Brazos, Clark, come to mind. I can name a bunch more that don't build them anymore or an incredibly small number a year.

Folks just want to relax when they go to shoot a match. IPSC has become too much like work from loading-gotta have the "perfect"load, to my IPSC football spikes, gotta have the "best" launch platform, to my firearms which are a race for the latest and greatest. If I am going to that much hassle, I might as well work. Even at a major match there is very little hanging out, except in your shooting cliques.

IDPA shooters seem to be a lot more laid back. Grab my Glock, Beretta, etc., load some what ever caliber that works well, go shoot. At major events there is a lot more hanging out going on, from lunch to having a post match beer.

You know, shooting needs to have a HIGH DEGREE OF FUN FACTOR.

 

[Tom Freeman]

You must have had some very bad experiences at IPSC matches in your area. That is too bad and I am sorry to hear that. I shoot both IPSC and IDPA and I like them both. They are however, very different animals. I think it’s the opposite at an IPSC match. No one is worrying about if it’s a TAC reload or what TAC order is or any of that. Just go shoot. Have some fun. You may say IDPA is training, and to some extent it may well be. But as you probably know better than me, it’s a different ball game when the targets shoot back.

In the above you draw make some interesting observations and then proceed to throw rocks at those who like Open class IPSC because *you* think it is a waste.

You say many pistolsmiths have gone under due to Open class. I would say Kimber and the Brady bill had more to do with that than anything else.

I just spent $2700 on a new racegun. That’s before mags and optics. I don’t feel screwed. I am glad as I got exactly what I wanted to include the serial number. My last open gun shot everything I fed it. It didn’t care. 115’s, 124’s. 147’s, Super brass, supercomp, or TJ.

Now what if you had spent $2700 on a Heinie single stack and I said you were a fool. Then only to only stick it in a piece of dead skin that you call a holster. That is because I think the only material holsters should be made of is plastic.

As to 3 gun matches and AR’s, my open AR doubles as one of my prairie dog guns. Often we shoot at 250-300 yard targets. Inside 100 yards, they are partials and tough shots. Yes it can be done with irons, it just takes more time. Shooting a close in run and gun stage with an AR is great fun.

Do you see where I am going with this? To each his own. Just don’t bust my balls because you don’t like the game I play. Take your energy and go design some stages or build some props.

Tom
AF Shooting Team

p.s. For what its worth I haven’t shot a 1911 since last year and an Open class gun for much longer than that. I have been shooting nothing but IPSC production division from an IDPA legal rig. Go to my USPSA # and check if you don’t believe me. FY36139

 

[abnranger]

No I really don't have a beef with open class, the race limited class is an open gun with iron sights and no comp; otherwise they are set-up the same Just what I have seen as a pervassive attitude from die hard open class shooters. It is truely a game of this is a good as it gets, locally I have heard many local legend in their own minds, question why any body would should production class.

No over the last five or six years I have shot and RO'd IPSC matches everywhere East of the Mississippi; and the elitist attitude is across the board. YOu know comments like why would folks shoot GSSF matches, you can't win anything-payback is much better for $50 there than at any IPSC match. Its the arguing about shooting positions, 2-A when it is an A, mike; etc.etc. IPSC guys take themselves way to seriously.

IDPA guys, especially the "tacticians" are just as big a pain in the ass. Especially since as tactical as they have or ever will is on the range. They generally follow up their experience with such witty lines as, well that's how I was taught at??? School.

Having had the experience of being shot at, cover is a good thing; a tactical reload clearing a building is a good thing; being told that shooting to keep folks occupied and reloading on the move is bad-that concerns me. Just doing a reload because you are running(you want to)that's dumb. Again most of the gunshop commandos are the worst SOs and arguementative shooters, they see things through the eyes of guns and bullshit magazine because so&so said it works.

The attitude problem is not as universal in IDPA shooters as it is in the IPSC crowd. This is especially true at club level matches, there are a lot less legends in their own mind in IDPA.

I did not say alot of pistol plumbers went belly up. I said they got out of the racegun business because for the most part they were tired of being married to the IPSC shooter. As one shop told me recently they went back to building carry/duty/IDPA 1911s because IPSC shooters were a pain in the ass.
Fred changes load, then can't get 1911 to run is on phone all regularly wanting XYZ shop to fix problem when the solution was your 1911 ran fine before and you changed things because.

Lastly, don't include Dick in this discussuion. He and a select few other Practioners of Metal Art are not included in pistol plumbing. I have been fortunate to shoot a number of Heinie guns, including Dicks own Delta Elite; bar none they are the smoothest 1911 I have shot-and I have shot them from EGW, Novaks, C&S, Brazos, SVI, Dawson Precision, and that list goes on. Buying a Heinie, Vickers, Garthwaite, these are useable works of art; I know a number of folks that own their pistols and they sit in a vault. Personally I would not freight the tariff or wait for one.

If you shoot lots at 2-300M I would still prefer an M1A, AR10, of a FN to an AR15. Just like those big 308rounds. For cost basis I would still lean to an AK, at least around the NE for 3gun as most shots will be 150m or less and you can mount an dot sight on an AK. FWIW, I was not a fan of the M16A2(I actually volunteered to hump the 60), given the opportunity to go to sniper school since SOCOM did use the M21 I jumped on it.

Now the AR that are out there barely resemble an AR. Round cut out forearms, flat top front sights or none at all, heavy stainless fluted barrels, etc. Some of them with scopes, bi-pods in an HBar set-up are close to the weight of a FN or M1A; and run substantially more, actually more than some of the finest bolt guns going too.

Sorry to bust anybodies chops, but shooting is supposed to be fun. It just seems that for the most part the IPSC crowd has lost the perspective. For that matter so have alot of Trap Shooters; the equipment envy thing.

In over 40 yrs on this earth I have shot most of the games out there, save for sihloutte and DCM-uncle sam broke the desire to shoot that, and SASS-can't afford the clothes; ITS ALL FUN, JUST THE SHOOTERS TAKE THE FUN OUT OF IT. Lighten up, go chase a tin can with your 10/22 and remember that shooting is fun.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: abnranger on 2001-09-15 12:56 ]</font>

 

[hhsmiley]

Geez, I wouldn't shoot IPSC either if it had ever been like some here have described it. All the people I have shot with at IPSC matches have been nothing but courteous and very willing to share information, and were just friendly in general. In some folks' experience they may have run into a couple who were stuck up or something but let's not make hasty generalizations about IPSC shooters. One might also want to consider the idea that some crazy people may actually ENJOY constantly tinkering with guns, loads, etc. To some, the idea of throwing the ol' Glock and whatever ammo is laying around in the trunk is boring. I for one am not going to go on and on about why I may think it's boring or in some way try to dissuade others from it. If they enjoy shooting that way, great, have fun.

I'm still relatively new to the game, as I had just gotten into the sport back in 1995, and then had to take 4 years off when I was in the Army and they sent me all over the world. I shot a Springfield mil-spec back then and it was a real jam-o-matic, with sights that moved in their dovetails and a lovely 8 lb. trigger. Well, when I actually ran out of ammo in one of my first matches trying to get a plate rack down these "elitist IPSC snobs" actually came up during the stage and gave me a couple more magazines to finish the stage. Nobody was condescending to me despite my pitiful performance. They encouraged me to keep shooting and checked out my gun and pointed out the reasons why it was giving me such a hard time. I was so new I just thought it was normal to almost have a hernia pulling a 1911 trigger.

This incident and the way everybody acted is what really convinced me to get into this stuff. I didn't know very much, but was keenly interested, and these folks were more than willing to share their knowledge and help me out. Since then I've moved on to better equipment and have improved in my shooting skills. I, with the help of some others, have built a new gun for open class which I'm quite sure would be considered a waste of money to some. It's really fun to shoot however, which is of course the point.

Let's not begrudge someone their choice of sport or equipment due to our limited experience with a few "bad apples". I know that when I post a topic on a forum showing my new open class gun or discussing open class IPSC I'm really not looking for somethinglike this:

"Racegun, way to specialized toy to waste money on. Too ammon pickey, can't carry on a daily basis, weighs to much, over priced, can't come up with any good reasons to buy or consider such a techo-geek kinda firearm."

THAT, to me, seems like an elitst and belittling remark, that is pure negativity. If I had ever had an IPSC shooter ever say anything like that to me or about anybody else at or away from a match, I for sure would have picked that person out as one to avoid. As I have recently acquired a new BHP and would like begin using it in IDPA matches, I sincerely hope that I will not encounter this type of attitude there.

 

[Guest]

Abn.

I would like to disagree with you.
not sure how well I will do.

Yes there are several smith's that have left the IPSC ranks, for the very reasons you list.
Yes to my count, of the 50+ gunsmith's that were large enough to have an add in major magazines we have lost 1/2 in the last 4 years. To Kimber, yes. Add STI,SV, Springfield and Colt making a better product also. Some build only IDPA, or carry guns now. Great. what ever works for you.

I am a fan of the 308 also. SR 25 is my favorite. For Ipsc several matches run out to 300 yds and the AR 15 is tough to beat.
the gun sands scope should cost about 1k complete though. And should shoot 1/2 moa.

The equipment race has flattened out somewhat. Limited and open guns like you said are pretty similar. 2k to start. Production holds promise. we will see.

I have found the shooters by and large to be a great group. Yes there are the ones you speak of. Just walk away. there are pleanty of good ones too. Maybe with no one listening they will shut up?

If you get to Shoot, and be safe and have fun and make friends, tell me the bad part??
sounds like a good day to me. IPSC, IDPA, STEEl, Glock,...... Just enjoy.

geo ><>

And Ps
I think it should be required to own and shoot a 22 rifle (hopfully at Small objects :smile.

 

[banjobart]

I shoot IPSC every Sunday and love it. I needed a HOBBY to enjoy on the weekend after spending 20 years with my nose to the grindstone. It is a really fun GAME!!!

So, Mr. Ranger, you dont like it, then don't go. Go shoot IDPA.

I shoot IDPA whenever I can,too. It is another really fun GAME! I am very excited that next year in Michigan I can shootIDPA every Saturday. I will shoot IPSC every Sunday and IDPA every Saturday all spring, summer and fall.

I shoot the same Para and same holster and mag pouches for each sport. People who go out and buy a $3,000 gun do so to have more fun and enhance their pleasure while enjoying their favorite sport. They are not doing this to aggravate you. Leave them alone.

I like IPSC better, I get to shoot more. IDPA works for me,too, I sign up twice, pay twice amd shoot twice, both pistol and revolver. Then I get my shooting fix for my shooting jones.

Don't knock my favorite GAME. If it's not for you, dont show up. I don't golf, I would rather die than golf, but I have no problem with those that wish to golf. It is sour grapes to knock them and their equipment. They are just out trying to have a good time.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: banjobart on 2001-09-28 10:51 ]</font>

 

[Tom Freeman]

On 2001-09-28 10:44, banjobart wrote:I would rather die than golf,
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: banjobart on 2001-09-28 10:51 ]</font>

Reminds me of a shirt a saw a fellow skydiver wearing.

I WOULD RATHER SKYDIVE AND GO IN THAN GOLF

Tom
AF Shooting Team

 

[Ted Murphy]

FWIW, I real into shooting what I carry, etc, (even at USPSA) but I would love to get a race gun.

I suppose it may take the "reality" out of the sport, but there is more to race guns than just the "dark side".

I look at the open shooters (and my, they seem to be diminishing in ranks in deference to limited) and see some seriously content people playing with any and all modification to make there gun go bang. Many of them don't go bang as often as they should but it looks like a merry time was had anyway.

I really enjoy watching the open guys run stages that maybe took me 15-19 seconds with my limited-10 gun and IDPA legal holster and see them do it in 8 or 9 seconds, including a mandatory reload. It would be fun to see what I could do with a rig like that, practicality be damned.

For me it is not the price of the gun as much as it is the magazines, but until I get my AR, M1A and a few other guns on my dream list, an open gun just isn't on the horizion. Still, it is fun to dream....

Take care,

Ted

 

[Tom Freeman]

I just "inherited" an OLD, real old, Caspian single stack steel gun in 38 super. Its estimated that there is 100K rounds through it. I think the slide is down around 8 ounces. The comp is shot out though, maybe a nice Titanium or aluminum replacement is due.

I took it out yesterday and put some real low PF (IDPA) ammo through it at some poppers. What a hoot. I had forgot how fun it is to go plinking with a steel gun. No recoil, minimal dot movement, and no one there to make fun of me shooting a dot gun.

I was planning on shooting the American Handgunner in IDPA class next year and giving DR Middlebrooks a run for his money, but maybe I will give Open and Angus a shot.

After a year of Production, this open class stuff is pretty fun.

Tom
AF Shooting Team

 

[DBL-TAP]

I used to shoot IDPA and im going to be shooting IPSC soon and was wondering what is the best gun for it. I was thinking svi for
limited

 

[Brent Chambers]

Ranger:

I'm sort of at a loss with your initial post. Maybe your IPSC crowd is different than here in Michigan, but I've got to wonder if maybe you went into IPSC with an attitude that you then projected onto the people you met.

Yes, some IPSC guns are expensive. I have about $2000 into my Limited gun including magazines. I will be buried with this gun if my daughter doesn't want it.

The single stack I use for IDPA cost a little more. Do I need either of these? Hell no, but I'm a gun nut and saved my pennies, and there they are.

Would you go to a trap match and start railing those who had a Perazzi or Krieghoff?

For that matter, have you seen what Wilson, Baer, Rock River etc. are getting for an IDPA setup gun? Not to mention 'smiths like Heinie, Burns and Morris? Give me a break Ranger! Why don't you email IDPA founder Bill Wilson and Ken Hackathorn and ask them to explain why they are using $3500 guns for their weekend IDPA matches?

True, you can shoot a $500 Glock in IDPA, but you can in IPSC also!

I have NEVER experienced a single occurance of condescension at an IPSC match or an IDPA match in terms of equipment. Anyone who did would find themselves shunned by the majority I'm sure.

You're right- a stock AR-15 will work great for IPSC 3 gun (I use a box stock Colt HBAR-II 16"). For those that enjoy tinkering we have Open rifle.

I don't mean to chest pound and so on, but I've never seen a hobby in this country that people don't tinker with- be it cars, golf, guns or computers- for many this sort of personal level technical involvement is the draw of the hobby. Its how we improve and evolve machines.

Both IPSC and IDPA have classes that welcome people such as you who enjoy taking what the factories have to offer, and more power to you.

As for casualness- you need to shoot some more IPSC before you compare rules. Come on up to Michigan- we don't have a weak IPSC club in this state. I'll meet you there and you can borrow my useless Limited gun (which, BTW, I'd stake my life on).

Good shooting-

Brent

 

[StuporDave]

I keep reading all these horror stories about IPSC/USPSA. Elitism, bad attitudes, equipment race, etc. I'm glad I started shooting IPSC before I started reading this stuff or I never would have started competing.

My son and I have been competing for a little over a year. I guess I'm lucky as I haven't met any of the people with the bad attitudes. The more experienced shooters have always been freindly and helpful.3

There's a guy in my local club who I'm told is the only double Grand Master (limited and open) in Louisiana. He's pulled me aside after I shot a stage and gave me tips on improving my game. (Yes, it's just a game)

My son is sixteen and the only junior shooter in the club. He continuosly improves thanks to all the help from the other members.

We both shoot in the limited-10 class with single stack 1911's. I've shot some of the race guns. They're alot of fun, but my logic right now is that they make it too easy. I'd rather keep getting better with open sights and recoil. (if it ever comes down to it, I won't be defending myself with a red-dot and compensator)

Granted, I've only shot club matches with three different clubs. That's probably about 100 people I've met through the sport and not an a$$hole yet. I'm sure they're out there. I'm sure I'll meet a few eventually. Seems so far that they're the exception rather than the rule.

OK, I think I've said what I wanted to say. My index fingers are tired of typing.

Later,

Dave

 

[Brent Chambers]

Double Tap:

Post your "what is a good IPSC gun?" question on a new topic heading and you'll get some great input.

Brent

 

[Magnumite]

For what it is worth...I don't think elitism is particular to any shooting sport. Most of the shoots I attend the participants are generally friendly and willing to discuss technical issues or just plain talk.

I think the attitudes are more an issue of a particular range. I caught a couple of 'tudes at a club I began some of my action pistol competition at. And it was always the same individuals.

All in all...shooters tend to be the best bunch of competitors, plinkers or "target" shooters I have interacted with.

See, I just registered and I am replying my fanny off. :smile:

 

[actionshooter]

I guess I am like some of the others who have posted,how do you reply to these statements?
I can say I have run into the elitest snobs in IPSC,BUT it is rare,come to think about it I have run into them in IDPA,Hi-power,bullseye,smallbore,ppc, hhhmmm I guess everywhere.
As far as spending lots of money on gear,who cares,its my money to spend! I could run around finding faults with everything but thats not what I'm into. I like having fun and to me thats competition. Mostly IPSC.
Steve

 

[Scooter]

There was the mention of shotgun shooters. Well, has anyone looked into how much a Perazzi cost. $2K for a IPSC race gun is pocket change when you compare it with a Perazzi. Last time I dare to look into the price, they started at $9000. Most were like $15K. They had one that was into the $100K at the Shot Show.

 

[stipilot]

I keep reading all these horror stories about IPSC/USPSA. Elitism, bad attitudes, equipment race, etc. I'm glad I started shooting IPSC before I started reading this stuff or I never would have started competing.

Yes, and like you've found out, it's mostly bullshit. I've been shooting IPSC for 6 years now all over the middle Atlantic states and those assertions simply aren't true.

Kinda makes me wonder what's the motivation behind the people making those claims.

 

[actionshooter]

I don't doubt that people have have run into the attitudes but sometimes I think an opinionated person with an attitude can bring out the worst in others.
Steve

 

[Howardk]

Some perceptions about the IPSC equipment race are in the eye of the beholder. It's easy to be envious of a $3,500 open rig if you covet but can't afford it. I shoot L-10 and can't afford (or don't want) to spend money on a race gun. OTOH, I can admire expensive race guns and not be jealous.

When I first started shooting IPSC I felt some snobbishness. But after a while I realized the problem was mine. I also realized that what sometimes looks like snobbishness is actually shyness. At first, all the talk of an equipment race almost scared me away. Since then, I've shot in clubs in TX and NM and never felt anyone was turning up their noses because I shoot in L-10. As a D class shooter I also have no pretensions of winning a match, which probably helps me to enjoy them more.

To be fair, I'm sure there are IPSC clubs with lots of snobbish assholes. But with IPSC new membership rates being flat, these clubs will either have to learn to be gracious or learn to close their doors. Also to be fair, my worst experience has been with IDPA. I once got yelled at for having the audacity to cup my hands while looking at a target.

Most men who can afford it (and some who can't) piss away money. We like our toys. Look at how much some guys dump into their trucks, SUV's, golf clubs, or their stereo or TV systems. If a guy works hard for his money and buys himself a top end rig as a toy, I'm happy for him. Hey, the U.S. economy is based on people pissing away their money -- it's called consumer choice.