Pistol Smith Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was wandering the internet and noticed Novak doesn't recommend ramped barrels for single stack guns.
I also noticed in another thread that Burn's uses non-ramped barrels for the 9X23.
The factory Colt barrel in my new .38 super is non-ramped.

But, most of the aftermarket barrels are ramped.
So, what's everyone prefer? and why?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
403 Posts
Heck Im still trying to figure out why any ramped barrel has a link and pin. If your going to use a ramp, why not use the Briley one with the larger crosspin seating area? I really liked that idea.

I've also heard that ramped isn't such a hot idea in a single stack, and to be honest, if the gun is built right, it should not even need one.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
I don't think that the issue is whether or not the gun is built properly. It is an issue of pressure and case strength.

9x23 brass is hell for stout and can easily handle major power loads in a non-ramped barrel. Put a major power load in a regular 38 super case, shoot it through an unramped barrel, and you seem to be asking for a case of "Super Face."

The ramped barrels are for containing high pressure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
On 2001-06-24 20:18, Peter Zahn wrote:

I've also heard that ramped isn't such a hot idea in a single stack, and to be honest, if the gun is built right, it should not even need one.
Peter...what did you hear??I have heard this too, but no reasons as to why..

The ramped barrel came to be because of 38 super in IPSC...from there..Para built all theur guns with a ramped barrel. From there everyone built one. It is not really needed unless you are loading over pressure loads like the super or 40 for IPSC. The 9x23 and 10mm do not need this as the brass was built to the appropriate strength for the ballistics and 45 certainly doesn't need it. It is an added expense, that in most cases unnecessary. But my question is what has everyone heard. I have seen a lot of comments, but no data.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
170 Posts
In theory a ramped barrel is good for beefing up the lower lugs on an high power gun like the 10mm; however, often by the time it is fitted to run 100%, most of the support has been removed.

My thoughts:

.45: No
10: No
.40SW: Yes
9x23: No
.38S: Yes
9x19: Yes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
403 Posts
From what I'm reading here, overpressure loads are the reason for ramped barrels. Well, was the 38 super ever designed for those pressures? I don't know, that's why I'm asking. If it wasn't, well, you probably shouldn't load them that hot. My mind tells me that just because you can modify a gun to shoot overpressure loads, you shouldn't necessarily do it. I might be wrong, but it makes sence to me. Reengineering a gun to compensate for a badly designed or weak case doesn't make a lot of sence to me either.

I have only heard that a ramped barrel in a single stack would adversly affect reliability. No one ever gave a reason for that, they just said it. Not sold on that yet till I get some more definitive reasoning. I still think that briley ramped barrel with the camming surface is the cats ass. Looks similar to the Sig p-210 lockup to me, and we can't fault that gun.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Zahn on 2001-06-25 17:12 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Hey Peter.

You are coorect that the ramped barrel was the answer for overpressure cartridges..The super was never designed for the higher pressures. IPSC competition was the reason of the adaptation of the super, two more rounds (Single stack days). big advantage. But that would blow cases (160 grn lead bullets were used, then 130FMJ, now 124jhp) so the ramped barrel was born. The 9x23 was the answer to that as John Ricco designed the case to replace the super as a competition cartridge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
The ramped barrel came to be because of 38 super in IPSC
Sorry, that is incorrect

You guys need a history lesson :wink: The ramped barrels started as a bulls eye modification to shoot 38 Special from 6 round mags in a 1911. It was never service quality reliable, but it allowed shooting 38 wad cutters in a bulls eye match.

Jim Clarke Sr. built his reputation and business on that style of gun.

Ed Brown commented on the fact that two piece barrels are more reliable than ramped last year in AH. In fact they are. Even more so for several reasons in a single stack gun specifically.

When I get time I will come back and detail why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
often by the time it is fitted to run 100%, most of the support has been removed.
I'll go as far to say that I have never seen a fully supported barrel on a 38 super gun that will run 100%. From the beginning of Super in IPSC, been there, never seen it.

Yes you can get enough support to keep the case intact. But realise that brass, primers, powder and the guns have all been redesigned over the last 15 years to be able to do so.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,420 Posts
There seems to be quite a bit of "new" info poppin' up, I guess some of it's bound to be misread and/or misinterpreted...

_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>g2<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

..!...then, we fight in the shade!..

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: gyp_c2 on 2001-06-25 18:53 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
378 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
On 2001-06-25 17:10, Peter Zahn wrote:
I have only heard that a ramped barrel in a single stack would adversly affect reliability. No one ever gave a reason for that, they just said it.
As I mentioned, Novak says it on their site.
But, I assume this is just a 1911 thing, due to angle's and such, since SIG 220's seem to work okay :smile:

I have a LW 38 super commander, and was thinking of getting it rebarreled. (Though, I do not reload, I still wonder about the unsupported case <most likely> in the pre-70's gun)
Since it's an aluminum frame, a ramped barrel would also help with feed ramp wear on the aluminum, even if I don't shoot it enough to worry about...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
The two piece barrel ramps are more reliable in any configuration of 1911. The smaller the case to original 1911 spec the more in-line the feed, so the more reliable they are by design.

The problems happen because the more rounds you put in any mag the worse the tolerance stack is for feeding from the mag.

Hence, first round feed problems.

Bottom line, the 1911 is not a Sig or a Glock. Feed and magazine designs are different.

After nearly 100 years you would think someone could do an improved design. In some ways many are for feed and function but mostly they are just a cheaper to produce design features.

And they have missed the boat as far as ergonomics.

The 9x23 is the strongest case ever built for a center fire cartridge. (no shit! :grin:

The case isn't perfect in design., It needs a better extractor groove and rim. But for spitting out light bullets, fast, from a 1911 it has no peers. NONE!

Bill,
The Springfield guns are good guns and a cheap date. I have done a number of them in 9x23. The new Kimbers will also have ramped barrels in 38 Super. Liability issues for blown cases. I can build most anything. If it is MY gun, I want a two piece ramp.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-25 21:11 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Dane,
I understand your preference not to use a ramped barrel in a 9X23 build up for reliability reasons as well as the inherent strength of the 9X23 case. However, I believe all Springfield Armory M1911s in non-45 caliber are being made with ramped barrels. I recall that in some of your previous posts you stated that these SA guns would be suitable base guns for a 9X23 project. Is this still your opinion, ramped barrel and all?
Bill Go
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
Guys, we are getting a number of issues confused. Ramped barrels don't always mean fully supported barrels. The terms are not interchangable.

Two piece barrel "ramps", done correctly, can give an amazing amount of support. Nothing gives full support that I have seen run in a 1911, single or dbl stack.

Ramp contours and feed reliability are designs that fight for their own place building a gun ,reliability on one side .
You have to redesign the support of the case by the ramp. Case support is the other side of the issue.

I build for reliability and use 9x23 to help that issue with a two piece barrel ramp.

It is difficult to shoot major at Sammi specs in a 38 Super in all but 158/160 grain bullets with out a different barrel ramp and chamber design.

Lots of guys shoot 115gr bullets at major these days and you have to redesign the barrels to do that.

Better powders and cases allow us to do things unheard of 15 years ago with a Super. Add 223 brass chopped off, which is almost what 9x23 brass is and you have a case that can take the pressures we are talking about here...50K CUP!

My apologies for being short but I don't have the time I would like to devote to the topic.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-25 21:27 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
On 2001-06-25 21:03, Dane Burns wrote:
The two piece barrel ramps are more reliable in any configuration of 1911.
Helps to read the ENTIRE thread before you ask more questions, Frank. :roll:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-06-26 11:32 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
555 Posts
Dane,

So to clarify in my head..You are saying the two piece is more reliable because the angle of the ramp is not as severe as a supported barrel due to the full support of the case. And since the WIN9x23 is stout brass that compromise is not needed like on hot rodded super. Combined this with the 10 rounds on a taper case the bullet will strike the feed ramp at an angle that will not feed. Hence why the two piece is more reliable???

Also you said a supported barrel and ramped barrel are not necessarily the same..Meaning a supported barrel is a ramped barrel but a ramped barrel isn't always a supported barrel??? :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: eerw on 2001-06-26 12:30 ]</font>
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,831 Posts
Pretty much you have it I think.

The thing left out is that the bullet "skips" from feed ramp to chamber on a two piece barrel ramp. The "skip" enables the round to cam under the extractor. The extractor is what controls much of the feed cycle.

Bottom line? The two piece barrel is more reliable because of the "skip".
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top