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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there any real world training/competition? I read somewhere that IPSC or IDPA uses some tactics and practices, like tactical reloads when they aren't necessary, that might get me killed in a real world self defense situation. So do I have to spend millions and go to every Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, LFI course to get what I need?
 

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IDPA and IPSC may do reloads when they are not actually necessary, but that isn't a training thing so much as a demonstration of the skills to perform the task in competition. We have a group that sometimes works through tactical reloads just a s a matter of practice such that if we do have to perform one at some time, at time when it would be advantageous to do so, then we will be able to perform it cleanly and efficiently. The drill begins with each of us having two-three mags (depending on your mag pouch capacity) including one in the gun. We will do some shooting drill, say mozambiques, and perform combat reloads as needed and tactical reloads on command by the range master. Of course, this is a drill best practiced when someone else is calling the changes.

Do you have to spend millions? Nope, but good training usually doesn't come free. IDPA is a good way to meet people who have similar interests and potentially allow you to develop a working group with which you can practice and work on drills together. Working alone goes gets you only so far. Classes do cost money. Working with friends of various skill levels, interests, backgrounds, and perspectives on gun handling will cost you time and range fees. That is not to say that you can replace professional training, but you can make better use of your non-professional training time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks. I will go to a local IDPA shoot this weekend and see for myself. I would like to get more realistic training than my current paper punching with no draws from holster (range rules)or no rapid firing and certainly no target transitions. Like most ranges the opportunity to do any realistic training is just not possible until they have matches. But I do need to train for the match right? I will continue to shop for a new range as well as a group to train with.
 

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This may sound like a smarta$$ answer, but the only real world training is the real world. Everything else pales in comparison. Want RWT with rifle/carbine? Join the Army. Want RWT in building search, aprehending suspects? Join the cops.

IPSC and IDPA allow you the opportunity to shoot your gun under stress, that's all. (That's not bad, but it ain't by any stretch of the imagine close to the real world).

Now, having said the above, there ARE many schools that teach skills adaptable to real world situations. Once you gain the basics and are proficient in gun handling and marksmanship, seek out training that allows you to build these skills. Simulations of possible real world events, using code eagle or simunitions are probably the best one can get. Live fire drills that force you to work in a 360 degree environment are necessary to get you out of square range mentality.

Becoming proficient in using any weapon for defense (or offense) is neither cheap or quick. For example, a Navy SEAL may train for 500 hours, but no-one knows how he will do until put in the real world.

I always find it interesting how people set their priorities. (I am not speaking of you, Mokie White, just a general obsrevation). A person may have a great gun collection, worth thousands of dollars, but no training. A person who thinks nothing of making $500 amonth car payments for the next 5 years will balk at the cost of a $300 training course, to learn skills that may save thier life so they can drive thier Lexus home from the Sonics game.

That's enough I guess...
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Aw geez thanks Marty. But you ain't getting my Bud.

Good advice. I keep remembering some article in a rag some time past where some LEO was shot or nearly so when he instinctively reholstered his weapon after he performed the training required number of shots on the target/threat in a real world situation..

I will not become that person. Or at least I will try like hell.

But I guess you are right about shooting under stress. I will look at IDPA this weekend.

I will always buy more than I need. You never know when your neighbor may have to provide cover or suppressive fire.
 

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Had a discussion with a young man who is into martial arts. I asked him him what % of his training was done at full power. I am sure you all know the answer.

If you practice with jacket off, yet carry under a jacket, if you practice with thumb break open, but carry with it snapped, if you practice strong side, but carry shoulder, if you stand in the open and shoot instead of shooting on the move and moving to cover, well I could go on and on.

Your actions in a critical situation will reflect the manner in which you train. GLV
 

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Mookie, you don't have to go to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch to get some pretty high level training. There are several trainers out there who will come to your range if you get enough people together to cover the cost.

John & Vicki Farnam spring immediately to mind. The Rangemaster crew (Givens, Burns & Higgenbotham) will travel. As a matter o' fact, I'm going to Dallas to take their class in October. Should be instructive.

I've attended several of Steve Silverman's classes http://www.f-r-i.com and can wholeheartedly recommend him as an excellent trainer. I've taken his Level II three times (once as an assistant instructor) and his Level III once. My gunhandling, shooting and tactical ability increased geometrically after each class. One of the folks I shoot with was a police sniper for 8 years and now heads a tactical response team for the Kansas Prison system. He's had more classes than most of us have had hot meals, and his response to Steve's Level II was that it was the best training he'd ever received.

In the meantime, while you're saving pennies for one of the big-name, fixed-base schools, see if you can get together 10-15 like-minded shooters and get one of the traveling trainers to your range. Shoot IDPA and check out the "Tactical Library" thread to see what books are worth reading.

Chad

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chad Ward on 2001-06-04 12:49 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for all the replys. I will look into some nearby or regional training. I am seriously considering Gary Belson's CQDT course. The best I have seen for ammo so far is CCI/SPEER 230 gr. FMJ in .45 ACP for $209/1000 rounds shipped.

I missed the IDPA shoot this weekend but will get the next one.
 
G

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South River Gun Club in Atlanta is hosting John and Vicki Farnam for Defensive Handgun over Labor Day weekend. If you would like details, let me know.

Claude
 

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Mookie,

Like Chad said, there are some great opportunities available to us with the level of trainers that have gone mobile. I started shooting IDPA earlier this year to become more a more active and better shooter. I have had nothing but good experiences and my shooting and gun handling have improved greatly. The best thing to come out of this, as "00-spy" says is getting into a group of people with the similar interest.
As a result I will be taking the Handgun 1 course from Louis Awerbuck at the end of this month, 30 minutes from my home.
My point in this is that you can make this happen. This will take place at a small club that averages 20-25 shooters per match. We just happen to have an individual or two that were motivated enough to do the leg work to make this happen. I can't take the credit as I was lucky enough to come around at the right time and enjoy the fruits of their efforts.

Get involved make some friends, do a little research and you shouldn't have any trouble finding some one to come your way.

have fun and be safe,

gr

:edited for spelling and missing words:
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kahana on 2001-06-04 16:15 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kahana on 2001-06-04 18:20 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I knew this was the right place to ask.

HeadHunter, I would like to know more. I will also check out your site and the IDPA site and become familiar with the rules of engagement and safety. I hope that IDPA has a newbie or beginner division. Any chance to get some instruction before shooting my first time?

kahana, thanks. This is part of my leg work I guess. I have already discovered some good places to get some training in Florida. I hope that IDPA will help my gun handling ability, situational awareness, and shooting confidence.
 

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Mookie,

As an IDPA newbie myself I say not to worry about the pre-match lesson. Go to the shoot with your pistol, a holster, a couple of extra magazines. Introduce yourself, let them know your are a first timer and if your local club is anything like the one's I shoot at you will have all the help you need. I was welcomed to the group with open arms. The amazing thing you will find is here are the same guys (and gals) that you are or will be competing against, and they don't hesitate to help you improve.

In IDPA you only compete against similar level shooters with similar handguns.

Go to http://www.idpa.com and you will find all the info you need, it will also have links to clubs in your state.



I showed up at my first match nervous as can be, the shooters were great at making me feel welcome and the SO's and directors helped by walking me through the stages as I shot them.

Don't worry too much about gear etc.. for now as you will have a better idea what you want after you get started and see what's out there.

My parting advice would be to get out and do it, don't make the mistake I made, last year I was where you are now, only I didn't act on it right away, nervous about the shooting in public/competiton etc..... one thing leads to another a year goes by and I still hadn't jumped into the game. Now I kick myself in the butt for not having just done it when I first wanted to........


Sorry about the long winded post...

Just thought I'd pass on the words of a new IDPA member,


have fun and be safe

gr
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
kahana, that's exactly what I was looking for actually. I will indeed go to the next IDPA match at my local range that I am a new memeber of. I will be shooting some paper before then and I will be asking the range officers as well as my neighboring shooters what to expect and some more detailed information.

I am anxious about getting started doing more than punching paper in my modified weaver.

Again I can't say enough about the advice the member's of this board can provide to the inexperienced shooter. Feel free to give us more information than you think we may need. At least in this case it has helped me.
 

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kahana, that's exactly what I was looking for actually. I will indeed go to the next IDPA match at my local range that I am a new memeber of. I will be shooting some paper before then and I will be asking the range officers as well as my neighboring shooters what to expect and some more detailed information.
Mookie, you'll love shooting IDPA. First Timer Advice:
  • Go to the website http://www.idpa.com and download the rulebook. It's a short read. [/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Make sure you have a couple of extra magazines for your first match. You always need more than you have :smile:[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Practice your draw stroke and moving with your pistol DRY, i.e. take a couple of minutes at home to ingrain taking your finger out of the trigger guard and keeping the pistol pointed downrange while moving.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Make sure you tell the match director that you're a new shooter. Every IDPA club I've ever shot with has been extremely welcoming to new shooters. They understand that you're nervous and will generally pair you up with an experienced shooter to guide you through the match. At our IDPA club, new shooters shoot their first match free. We also have a brief safety lecture and range command review before each match -- a reminder for the experienced shooters and a quick overview for the new shooters. If your club doesn't do this, ask the match director or your shooting partner to go over the range commands with you.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Remember that the unload/show-clear at the end of the stage is OFF THE CLOCK. The shot timer stops when you fire your last shot, so don't let the adreneline rush push you into trying to unload and show clear in a hurry. Take your time.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Shoot slowly and carefully. Your first match will be a blast. Resist the urge to shoot faster than you can. You'll be doing unfamiliar things in unfamiliar ways -- SLOW DOWN. You'll get better hits, be safer and have more fun. Don't worry if it takes you three times as long to finish a stage. At our club bragging rights go to the person who shoots with the fewest points down rather than the fastest shooter.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Watch the other shooters go through the stage. Most ROs, if they know you're new to IDPA, will make sure you have a chance to see several other shooters complete the stage so that you have an example to follow.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Help paste targets! That, more than anything else, will endear you to your new club.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • Take a snack :smile:. Our club provides lunch, but I don't know how many others do. You'll get hungry.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]
  • If all else fails, remember "front sight, press" and don't worry about anything else.[/*:m:23dt3m2f]

Have fun.
Chad
 

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For Marty mostly, may be interesting to others..here goes! First of all Marty guys I talk with up your way say your classes are the best by far..people have good words about you. I take some basic handgun classes once in a while, they are for the most part not very challenging. I do it to maintain some level of interaction with a shooting group.
We don't have guest groups train out this way...I don't know why but suspect the ranges(what there are of them) are busy every weekend. Where I shoot there is nobody there during the week. Training is pretty tough to get around here. I should say varied training and the type described by folks back in the SE.
We will never be street aware that a cop is, the bad guy understands what he intends to do to you and how. It will happen so fast most of us won't see it coming. I practice awareness going to stores and even to the point who is around the house but the actual training to prepare for events is slim.
Trying to get a group together for training would be difficult in my opinion. I have never seen any of the groups who train out this way offer to coordinate training by outside folks. Maybe its just the area I don't know. But yes we need training very bad and a few bucks once in a while is well spent.
 

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Fortyfive:

When my wife and I purchased the land and started to put together our business plan, our main emphasis was to make our training affordable for people on the West Coast. Under $300 for a plane ticket, a weekend rental car and a couple of nights in a local motel and the class fee. We also charge less than most other trainers, for this very reason.

Both my wife and I come from very modest backgrounds, and know firsthand how difficult it is sometimes to make ends meet. I also made the purposeful decision not to become a traveling road show, although my wife occasionally travels to put on a womens program. There are several great trainers traveling around the country, and I should think that you and your buddies could hook up with one of them, either at your range, or a range within driving distance.

My best to you, hope to see you in a class sometime.
 

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Mookie,

There is one more thing I would like to add to all the comments. That is, what really makes any event a success isn't the shooters, it's the shooters that show up early and help with the set up, it's the shooters that stay after and help take down the stages. Nothing will put you on the "good list" at a club faster (especially a newbie) than being willing to put in a little extra time with the work that is involved in making a match happen. People know that you may not always be able to help, but do so when ever possible. Don't be one of the "shoot 'n' scoot" crowd.

So enjoy the match and let us know how it went.......

laters

gr
 
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