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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How can anyone that shoots as a Master in SSP class show up to a State Championship and shoot as an expert in ESP class with the same Gun that he added a extended mag release to.

IDPA needs to do something about this.
 

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We were talking about this a bit a short while back on the IDPA-L

Thing is, there is a significant differences in the classification times between ESP MA and SSP MA (89.41 vs 98.82 respectively) This is not something that is a problem or a mistake.

When they set up the classifier times they decided on the overall percentages for the different classes:
Master 85 - 100%
Expert 70 - 84.9%
Sharpshooter 55 - 69.9%
Marksman 40 - 54.9%

Then what they did was have some top guns (Leatham was one IIRC) shoot the classifier. Top time was 100% & the percentages were worked down from there. The advantages of the M1911 type actions made for the different times. (though I often wonder if the classifier needs to be reshot by the "top guns" and the times recalculated. Letting Sevigny or Langdon shoot the classifier might change the numbers greatly)

Some guys figure out they can stay competative a while longer by making the move to ESP after winning class in SSP, and I think it's kinda lame. I have seen a few examples of that in this past month alone. I think it's a sin against the principles of IDPA, but there is no official sanction to be made.

The "moving over to ESP" to stay in SS or EX class is old hand, but I don't know what could be done officially, that wouldn't screw over honest shooters. After all, if you started shooting Wheelgun tommorow, you probably would not be at the same level as you are with that 9x23 of yours :smile: So isn't it fair to shoot in MM if that's how you classify?

I think the answer is for the good shooters to lead by example and shun those that sandbag.

Ted
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I think they need to move some of the guns into ESP. Leave all double action only guns in SSP. If you look at a Beretta Elite II you can see what i mean. Once the first shot is fired the 1911 and the E II seam equal. What are the time differences to the first shot? The beretta is DA with no thumb safety and you need to stage the trigger on the first shot. The 1911 safety needs to be disengaged before the first shot. We need to determine if there is a time difference between the two and then multiply it times the number of draws to get real world differences.

I shoot an 1911 9x23 and a Elite II. With the 1911 I have shot the classifier 3 times trying to reach expert. I missed by 2,3,and 5 seconds. I shoot the EII abnout the same and I missed expert by 0.45 which the next day the range I shot at somehow found a 1 second mistake and declared me an expert. If you look at the time spread between the classes, it doesn't work out.

I think Double action guns should be in one class,Revolvers in another and Major and minor enhanced pistols. To say that glocks have to move to ESP because they have a steel guide rod or extended mag release is dumb,especially since its allowed in CDP and ESP.

We need to redo the times on the Classifications.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
 

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On 2001-10-30 16:40, jm10mm wrote:
I think they need to move some of the guns into ESP. Leave all double action only guns in SSP. If you look at a Beretta Elite II you can see what i mean. Once the first shot is fired the 1911 and the E II seam equal.
FWIW, a glock shooter creamed team Beretta (who were using the sacred Elite II's) in SSP this year :smile:

I think there is a miniscule advantage to the Crunchenticker shooter over the DAO or Glock type action but not enough to exile it from SSP. Most SSP shooters shoot DA guns anyway, so if such a move were to be made, the fallout would make the 10mm to ESP whining seem like child's play.

SSP is supposed to be for LE or home defense guns, and the crunchenticker is a big part of that crowd. It belongs in SSP.

What are the time differences to the first shot? The beretta is DA with no thumb safety and you need to stage the trigger on the first shot. The 1911 safety needs to be disengaged before the first shot. We need to determine if there is a time difference between the two and then multiply it times the number of draws to get real world differences.
This really has not been a problem. While the crunchentickers are dominant at the top of the IDPA SSP Ma results, look at who is shooting them. Landgon, Yost, Haught et al would be up there if they were shooting S&W Sigmas.

And if you look through the ranks the guns are pretty evenly matched. In fact, if anything, the Glock shooters do better in SSP at most the local matches I frequent.

And I don't know about you but when I shoot the Pathetic Ancient Religion (M1911's :smile: ) I lose zero time disengaging the safety as it's done on the draw stroke. And FWIW, many Crunchenticker shooters (and wheelgun men) prep their DA trigger on the draw, as dangerous as this may sound, which makes the time lost triggercocking zero as well. However, most DA shooters have serious problems with the DA/SA transition with their guns, a liability more than anything.

So what we are talking about is more shooter ability than gadgets. A top DA shooter will be unreal, but give him a Sig DAO or a Glock and he will still be unstoppable. FWIW, I think JoeAverage shooter is more handicapped by a crunchenticker than anything else.

To say that glocks have to move to ESP because they have a steel guide rod or extended mag release is dumb,especially since its allowed in CDP and ESP.
I agree with this decision wholeheartedly. SSP is supposed to be box stock, the metal guide rod isn't factory spec. But the real reason I like the move is every new IDPA shooter with a Glock always asks on a list such as this one, "what do I need to shoot IDPA?" and someone always tells them to buy a metal rod. So the rod has become a "must buy" before someone can compete. I've seen this at my club and I think it's silly. This limitation of the metal gude rod to ESP saves new shooters money. My $0.02 anyway.

We need to redo the times on the Classifications.
Yep, it's about time on that one.

I will say that a good rule change to put on the table would be whether or not guns made purely for competition (such as the Elite II, Glock 34/35, and that new Stainless Steel Sig Arms match gun) should be put in ESP/CDP depending on caliber. That might be worth considering.

And, since 10mm and .400 cor-bon is now in ESP, I think an exception to the box rule should be made for these guns so they can use 10 round single stack magazines like the Wilson Bureaucrat.

Ted



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ted Murphy on 2001-10-30 19:08 ]</font>
 

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IDPA really needs to update the classifier times. Then again, IDPA doesn’t seem to be very open to member input. Too bad.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

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IDPA's lack of concern about membership input is amazing. I respect IDPA fans and their loyalty, but a friend who is club director can't even get a respone to his inquiries about recent rule changes. What's up with that?

The good news is that many loyalists "in the field" are doing there best with IDPA, though I suspect their patience will run out someday as well.

Maybe I got too used to USPSA's top folks taking the time to write back when asked even the most mundane questions.
 

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I think the classification system is just fine. Nothing at all broke about it.

I'm not too sure why you care about what pistol a person is shooting in what class?
IDPA lets you shoot whatever you want and one pistol is as good as the next in many cases. These days it seems a whole lot of people are competitive with a bunch of different pistols which is good for the sport.

I shoot all 4 classes and I enjoy shooting different pistols some I shoot better than others. Does it really matter what pistol I whip up on you with? Would you feel any better if Rob or Ernie kicked your ass with Hi-Point?

So just quit whining and go out and buy that new gamer gun it's good for the economy.


Mike
 

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Mike,
Such strong words. Now quit playing on the internet and go back to making holsters. And practice more or I'll whip your butt at the next match. I'll even let you shoot your cheater gun and I'll use a Grock.
 
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