[Guest]

This has been an interesting and enlightening discussion on TF, so I thought you might enjoy continuing the discussion here since this is a different crowd. On the TEMS forum, I asked about the physiological changes that occur during an altercation. RESQDOC's "off the top of his head" response was amazing and worth reading.
He also said the following:

"I have heard of some fairly informal tests involving standardized shooting drills done before and after epinephrine injections, in an effort to simulate the performance enhancement/degradation that results from stress, but I have not seen any formal results published."

We began discussing how we might do a similar test to publish on TF, although I would be most happy to share it here too, if you are interested.

Jeff offered:
"LTC (Ret) David Grossman does a good job of covering the effects of adrenalin in his seminar. His info is based on post combat interviews and a study that was done by other psychologists. http://www.killology.com/art_psych_combat.htm
Grossman's research tied these physiological changes to blood pressure. He taught "combat breathing" to overcome this and diminish these changes. If you do the test, it might be interesting to see if the "combat breathing" (basically a deep breathing/relaxation technique) actually has an effect on the performance."

belisarius suggested:
"I would personally also like to see a test in which one or more of the top "Israeli" technique (modified WW II technique) point-shooting advocates was pitted against a top IPSC/IDPA competitor who HAD THE SIGHTS ON HIS WEAPON REMOVED. I and many others have seen evidence that proper training in state-of-the-art sighted-fire techniques will build an inherent "point-shooting" capability into one's basic shooting platform. I believe that a test like this would demonstrate that sighted-fire techniques develop a gross hand/eye coordination skillset which will allow the shooter to accurately place shots from the traditional MDI/Weaver stance without having to use his sights."

Many others posted their thoughts about the importance of a test like this, what they were interested in seeing, and so forth.
What kind of test would you like to see and why?

 

[gyp_c2]

...Oh I've definately heard of it...Not recently either...Interesting...

 

[Guest]

Teryl,
Interesting article and it is a good thread on your board.
Ayoob has done this a few times and I have had this same discussion on Ayoob's findings with Dr. Desimone (Doc). Doc has been an adjucant instructor at LFI although he makes his living primarily as clinical psychologist/expert witness. Anyhow, I am not sure that epiniphrine injections can bear out an accurate test result, I know from my own experiences that during fight or flight I had rock solid hand motor skills but I could not speak.
Cracks, waves, odd noise, but not a single intelligable word and it often took me a solid hour to get past it. In a seperate non-shooting related incident I went to the trauma center with a steering wheel in my hand from a Jeep. Only when I regained consciousness could they release my grip, it seems I held onto the wheel during impact/rollover and the wheel and I ended up in the passengers seat, the noteable thing was not tearing the wheel off it was that my hand was in the exact place/postion that I grab the wheel when climbing into the Jeep.

 

[Matt VDW]

Given the resources, I'd like to run all sorts of experiments with shooting and stress. For instance:

Take three groups of shooters -- some marginally trained, some highly trained in "conventional" techniques, and some highly trained in "stress resistant" techniques. Test them all to get baseline scores, then give them the stress simulant and test again.

 

[gyp_c2]

...What "standardized drills" are we talking about? Seems to me that drill would have to be "changed" not used again, otherwise where is the stress? I guess what I'm hitting at is how do you arrive at "arranging" stress...The very fact that you are repeating something would jade the results...wouldn't it?
:wink:

 

[Guest]

Testing like this has been done before, but it left a lot of unanswered questions. We want to answer some of those questions, and allow for the option of comparing notes to previous test results, if possible.

We started the thread to get ideas on the type of information we would like to gleen from a series of stress tests, what kind of tests would give us this information, and how those tests might be done to achieve the results we are looking for.

It's in the discussion phase only right now. We are interested in your input.

 

[gyp_c2]

Gotcha...:wink:

 

[GLV]

Not too sure it is feasable in that meaningful-useful results would be forthcoming.

The group would have to be rather large. Physical condition would need to be similar. Tests would have to be done double blind.

The results would have to be quanifiable, so the observers would have to be given strict guidelines that allowed very little latitude.

If it could be done, the results would no doubt be interesting. GLV

 

[mnealtx]

It would be VERY interesting, that's for sure. I'd like to see the results of it, as well.

Although I WILL say, after seeing Bubba's webpage, that you could save on the epi by having MD zap em a couple times with his "ElectroKnife" :grin:

 

[Guest]

We have brought up the idea that in order for these tests to approximate real combat engagement, we would have to introduce the element of pain.

During a series of stress tests that observe the actions and reactions of a person defending themselves with a firearm, we would probably have one or more persons shooting at them with airsoft pellets. If they don't take cover FAST, they are going to get shot and it is going to hurt.
You get hit with one of those, and you feel it.
Most people immediately feel the sting, and they get a nice goose-egg swell and some bruising on the hit site.

Speaking of electrical training tools, the "E" knife would most certainly be used to conduct stress tests on persons defending themselves with edged weapons.

It has been argued that epi may not produce the same effect that pre-exhaustion drills would, and because of this the use of the drug will not give realistic results. We will want to find this out.
Pre-exhaustion drills may vary well produce a more realistic physically stressed condition, but what if the epi more realistically approximates what it is like to go from zero to sixty in 2 seconds, which might be all the time you have to react to a life or death situation that comes without warning.
Something to consider...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Teryl McClung on 2001-06-04 18:58 ]</font>

 

[gyp_c2]

If the stressors could be applied simultaneously or...even better, on command...it would be closer don't you think?