SO's Making Calls

jm10mm · May 7, 2001

I shot in a IDPA major match this weekend and this happened to me:
I shot the first stage, 1 shot to T1-T6, slide lock reload, repeat T1-T6, slide lock reload, repeat. 18 shots at 12 yards, one point down.
Next stage was three targets at 3 yards, two to each. The SO called one shot a miss, I said it was a double(dead center)How could I miss a whole target at three yards after he just saw me shoot the last stage, and one of the other shooters said it looked like a double to him. The SO pulled out an overlay and declared a miss. I showed him a rule IDPA book that said any disagreement is always awarded to the shooter, he said its a miss. They called the Match Director over and he made me shoot it over. Both strings(2 to each body and 2 to each head).
I ended up missing a head shot(being a little upset about the ruling).

Heres the Question. If your a SO and someone disagrees with your call, what do you do?

[ This Message was edited by: jm10mm on 2001-05-07 14:42 ]

Dane Burns · May 7, 2001

Interesting lunch discussion.

Call would typically be to the shooter if the SO/RO is a fair enough guy. Problem I see is that the guys who generally end up being SOs aren't interesed in fair per say :roll:

Having been a SO at Nationals I can say that :grin:

From what you told me here is my "call". I would have done more and been more definative if I had seen you actually shoot.

I don't believe in perfect doubles

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-05-07 15:12 ]

Shane1911 · May 7, 2001

On 2001-05-07 15:09, Dane Burns wrote:

I don't believe in perfect doubles

Me neither. I've never seen one, or shot one.

JM, I'm not saying it didn't happen. I just think it's rare enough that even though the SO may have been a bit anal, statistics weigh heavily on the side of his call.

John Forsyth · May 7, 2001

On 2001-05-07 15:09, Dane Burns wrote:
Call would typically be to the shooter if the SO/RO is a fair enough guy. Problem I see is that the guys who generally end up being SOs aren't interesed in fair per say :roll:

Having been an SO at the Nationals also, please do not put all of us into that catagory. But I know what you are talking about.

With respect to the question, would you have gotten the call from me, more than likely. Would I have been put out with you for pulling out the rule book that says I have to go with your call because that is best for you, more than likely.

Being a SO/RO is about two things, being safe and being fair. That applies to you and to all the other shooters. I do not use templates, I use my and everyone elses eyes around me. When I am running the clock, I do not pay a lot of attention to the targets. I am watching you, the shooter, more specifically your weapon. Only, after the weapon is safe will I look at the targets. When I am scoring, I can be pretty sure if you had a "double" or a "miss". Everybody gets the same call, not calls by who you are or what you are.

To appeal a decision by an SO/RO, your only recourse is the Match Director. He can let it stand, give it to you, or reshoot. He made the decision, you had to reshoot it.

Tim Burke · May 8, 2001

How could I miss a whole target at three yards after he just saw me shoot the last stage...

Is this a rhetorical question, or do you want an answer? Did you shoot the stages at the same speed? Did you see your front sight just as well on the 3 yard stage?

The SO pulled out an overlay and declared a miss.

I thought overlays were expressly forbidden in IDPA. I don't believe in perfect doubles, either.

G. Kennedy · May 8, 2001

I don't see a problem. You took it to the match director and got a reshoot. Another one might not have given it to you.....

I have seen both IPSC Grandmaster/Master class and IDPA Master/Expert class shoot a clean stage except for one miss. I am not saying you did miss, I wasn't there. What I am saying is that you could have thrown a miss even though all your other shots were great, it happens. Life isn't fair....

G. Kennedy · May 8, 2001

One other thing: I don't see where it says in the IDPA rulebook the shooters gets the call if there is a disagreement. It says the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt, which is not the same thing.......

If that were the case I could argue something and then say, "There's a disagreement, I get the call in my favor". I don't think so.....

Mikey · May 8, 2001

This should not be that hard a situation to resolve.

I too have SO'd at all levels of IDPA from the Nats on down and I can honestly say that I try to give any shooter the double, especially if they have been very accurate over the rest of the stage, assuming that some sign of a double exists on the target. I may have awarded doubles for keyholes for all I know. But a perfect round single hole is just that. I have seen SO's who try to be hard a$$e$ and I have seen competitors who were total a$$e$ but they all have a point of view and the rules allow for protests.

As to how I would handle a shooter questioning the "no double" call...first, there would be NO overlays! Besides being against IDPA rules, this shows doubt on the part of the SO. Otherwise, why would he waste time trying to convince the shooter or anyone else that he made the right call? As an SO I make the call - period. If the shooter protests the call, I would pull and replace the target in question, set it aside, summon the Match Director and call the next shooter to the line. The Match Director can decide if I'm being a hard a$$, that's his job.

In reference to this particular situation, I don't see how a reshoot came into play. If there was no range equipment malfunction or interference with the shooter during the execution of the stage, then there was no reason for a reshoot. It was a simple scoring call - it's a hit or it ain't.

Mikey

Dane Burns · May 8, 2001

On 2001-05-07 15:46, John Forsyth wrote:
Having been an SO at the Nationals also, please do not put all of us into that catagory. But I know what you are talking about.

Hi John :grin: I meant it as a joke hence the :roll: When it comes to fair, the quality and speed of the match being ran compared to the shooter who has just shot the perfect double ,that a overlay didn't show, wouldn't make me a "fair" SO in the shooters mind.

Fair is always a concern and the second issue after safety for any SO. You get to be a SO at a National level because you can make decisions in a timely manner that are fair. That is a given. But "fair" isn't the only concern of any SO. How the match functions and how it proceeds is also an issue. Not only to the match staff but to every shooter also.

Just my 2 cents.

(btw I have never seen a perfect dbl in 18 years as a RO for USPSA or lately as a SO in IDPA. BUT I have shot more than a few myself in competition in both sports :grin: )

[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-05-08 00:06 ]

Tom Freeman · May 8, 2001

I am a bit of a Santa, so I might have given it to you. Maybe. Depends what kind of a mood I am in. Chickenshit answer I know, but that’s the truth.

That’s why I like steel. Its there or it isn’t. The human factor is minimized.

And I won’t use an overlay at an IDPA match. If its that close that to the perf that I have to look that hard, benefit to the shooter.

At an IPSC match I will normally ask the shooter to help me out and tell me what hole to put an overlay on or help me find what I cant see.

Tom
AF Shooting Team

John Forsyth · May 8, 2001

On 2001-05-08 00:04, Dane Burns wrote:
Hi John :grin: I meant it as a joke hence the :roll: When it comes to fair, the quality and speed of the match being ran compared to the shooter who has just shot the perfect double ,that a overlay didn't show, wouldn't make me a "fair" SO in the shooters mind.

That's not really what I am referring to. I have seen SO's who "change" how they run a stage depending on who the shooter is. Give one shooter a procedural for not using cover properly, while the next does the same and does not get one. Let one have all the time they need to get ready, start another before they are ready. Give one the "double", another a "miss". The point being, it is not right.

That's how I took it, and maybe I should not have. Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

jm10mm · May 8, 2001

Thanks for the great discussion. The double in question wasn't a perfect double. I saw it and another shooter saw it. But the real question was about the inconsistant calls from match to match. IDPA in fact spells this situation out, the call "Always goes to the shooter" It's in the question about scoring section of the rule book,second paragraph. Thanks

Dane Burns · May 8, 2001

Well "fair" is one thing and consistancy is another.

Everyone gets the same stage from me, like it or not :grin:

If someone put a overlay on a bullet hole and it showed a dbl in your eyes or that of another shooter then, yes, things should have gone differently.

Sounds like the best answer was a reshoot, which you did get. It is part of the game.

My first thought that something wasn't right is that a SO pulled a bullet overlay out of his pocket to "be sure". A overlay is a needed part of the ROs equipment in a USPSA match. It isn't needed or wanted by the rules in a IDPA match. The problem, which IDPA has tried to address, is consistancy is needed in SO training. The IDPA rulles are pretty schetchy compared to the USPSA rules. The ROs from USPSA often get drafted early on into being SOs for IDPA. That is sometimes not the best answer for the IDPA shooter.

SOs have been an issue all the way to a National level in IDPA. Not because the SOs are bad but because the shooter's experience level might have give different ideas on what makes a good match and "fair" rules. Many of the shooters came for a USPSA back ground and the different perspectives don't always mesh easily.

IDPA is still a "new" sport and getting everyone on board to the idea behind it and the lack of rules is a challenge IMO.

Kyle Farris · May 8, 2001

I always space my shots exactly an inch apart...just to avoid confusion.:lol:

Have FUN,
Kyle

jm10mm · May 9, 2001

Dane , I think you hit the nail on the head. There are alot of SO's from the other sports. IDPA needs to make the SO's role clearer. Thanks Again

Ted Murphy · Jun 6, 2001

Overlays don't belong in IDPA, they never did. I

S.O.'s are supposed to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. In the case of a major match some feel the S.O. should be more critical, but the rule I got at SO class is:

"When in doubt, it goes to the shooter".

with a corollary, "If you have to look real close to see if it broke the line, it goes to the shooter"

End of Story.

FWIW I've seen JM shoot, if he told me he doubled, I'd believe him.
_________________
Ted Murphy
http://www.eastontacticalops.com

[ This Message was edited by: Ted Murphy on 2001-06-05 18:49 ]

jm10mm · Jun 6, 2001

Welcome Ted. At one of the Major Todd J called a double when everyone clearly saw him launch one over top, they gave it to him. I clearly know when I launch one and never argue but when your on you can tell where each shot goes. At three yards its hard to mistake when you know you squeezed all the shots clean.

SO's Making Calls

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