[FortyFive]

While training with 10 or 15 others on the line you hear your 1911 go click not bang. What action do you take to recover from this condition? Would it be different than in a real life shooting situation?

 

[CitrusDude]

If you haven't been trained in the three main types of malfunctions, you need to be. What you describe is a Type 1 malf. The correct response is a Tap Rack Bang. You smack the bottom of the magazine with your off hand to make sure it is seated, then rack the slide, then reacquire sight picture and pull the trigger(bang).

Steve

 

[FortyFive]

Thank you Steve for your gracious input, lets hear from some others out there please!

 

[Shane1911]

CitrusDude has the right answer, as the first step to the condition you describe.

 

[GLV]

Remember, the most likely cause of a click instead of a bang is--NO AMMO!

Another is NO POWDER!

In training, action may be different than in an actual confrontation. If using reman ammo, check the bore, esp if empty case comes out during tap/rack/ready.

In an actual situation, if tap, rack, ready/bang did not work, RUN to cover, clear or get second gun. GLV

 

[FortyFive]

Thank you GLV....no powder was indeed the problem and a round was "stuck" in the barrel. It did not happen to me on the line but in a controlled range shooting environment where I had time to evaluate the situation. I wanted to pose a problem that shooters could think about a little and arrive at different answers. As to watching for a round or empty brass to be ejected...do you think it would be seen? As you roll the gun to the right for protection of a round going off and for gravity to do its work it may be hard to see an empty brass...just a thought. Nice going on the analysis GLV.

 

[Dane Burns]

The tactics "guys" (of which I like to think of myself as one) will tell you to TRB and drive on. But the gunsmith guys (which I am one) will tell you that if the gun doesn't go bang better figure out why in a training environment where you can...because you need to fix it first and then drive on, second. If the fix can't be made then the "drive on" is a mute point. Short of someone shooting at me or in a match, I check first, then fix. I'll risk a new barrel for my life everytime or a match..sometimes. Seems dumb to do the same in a class or at practice. With experience you can usually feel a dud, but when in question I check physically and visually...screw the tactics guys :grin:

 

[Clay]

Interesting view, Dane. I also like to check the gun before clearing the malfunction in training, but I honestly think this may actually be a bad idea. You not only revert to your level of training in a fight, but you revert to the things you have practiced the most. This is something I learned first hand, the hard way. When you start changing your gear around, and practicing several different techniques, you are inviting Mr. Murphy to join you in a fight. We like to discuss what gear and what tactics are better, but actually what is important is picking your gear and fighting techniques, and sticking with them, all the time, and practicing often.

 

[Dane Burns]

Trust me, I have heard all the arguements on the "train as you fight" side.

Problem is I know some really astute fighters who know diddly about what makes a gun run or not run. Limits their ability to fight in reality.

I suggest that you take the time in your training to find out why your gun malfs and get that fixed. You picked the darn thing after all. I clear malfunctions as fast as anyone, faster than most. I also take the time to look at every malfunction I have the time to look at and evaluate. I haven't seen a down time from the inspection time transfer to my fighting skills.

I have seen a couple of new BarStos trashed because a guy TRB into a dud. I also lost a match for taking the time to stop, clear my gun and actually look into the barrel to see what happened.

We choose the gun that we carry for self defense. You can treat malfunctions one of two ways...figure out why and fix it long term..which means diagnose the problem when it happens or TRB and give it to me and let me fix it for you.

The difference is I'll know how to get any malf back into action and you'll just know your gun malfed and not why or how to fix it past a TRB or FTF drill.

More knowledge is a good thing in almost every case.

I take self defense very seriously, just slightly more than my smithing. I think the best way to stay in the fight and prevail is look when you have the time and figure out what the problem is on a malfunction. Some times fast, aint always fast.

Yes I do have some "different" ideas but then again I look at the problem slightly differently. Bottom line is gun needs to run to fight with it. The more you know about your gun and how to address the malfunctions possible with your gun the more likely you'll be able to win any fight with that same gun.

 

[Clay]

Good point Dane. It is probably better to go to cover and evaluate when a stoppage occurs, if possible, or draw another weapon. I guess my main beef is with the instructors that expect people to learn and actually use two different techniques for every possible occurance in a fight. Very few people need to learn a whole slew of manuevers to accomplish a single task. Tactical reload vs. a Speed reload, for instance. I say pick one, practice it, and leave it at that. Some people may be uncommonly cool in a fight and not get it bass ackwards, but most of us will. Same goes for the so called slingshot technique vs. the slide release. Pick one that works for ALL the guns you may carry, and use nothing else. KEEP IT SIMPLE, I say :smile: .
The tap-rack-bang drill is simple, and it is probably the best way to deal with a stoppage when you have no backup gun. What should you do when a stoppage occurs at very close quarters, and either a TRB drill doesn't work or there is no time to perform? Drop the gun? Try to retain it somehow? Throw it behind you and fight on?

 

[Dane Burns]

I think the topic under discussion is two fold. One is practicing gun skills. The second is fighting skills.

If I need to go to cover....I won't be inspecting the weapon for specific type of malfunction. I will be getting back in the fight in any way possible. That is a fighting skill. More importantly I want to be using fighting techniques.

Gun skills on the other hand are part of fighting skills. But only a part of. I am under impressed when I see a trainier shoot a gun, it malfs, and he declares the gun unacceptable but can't relate to me why the gun malfs.

Was it the gun, his grip, the ammo or the mag. May be it isn't the gun at all. May be it is the shooter not knowing how to run that style of gun or having inconsistant shooting techniques.

If I do a round house and hit you in the thigh and you continue to fight through the pain it is my fault for not taking out your knee and making it so you are immobile.

If it is a real fight I will continue kicking and take out the knee ASAP. If I am training I will slow down and place a perfect kick to get the reaction that I want.

Does that make sense?

I don't look at a gun as anything but another tool in a fight...my fists, my legs or a knife or a car for that matter if I am using it as a weapon are just part of my gear. the more I know about eachh the better I can use them.

Some common sense goes a long ways here. Look when you have the time and learn how to fix the problems. Practice at full speed when you can so that reacting at full speed will be a conditioned response.

Either technique is working within the SODA loop (see, observe, decide and act) but at different speeds. You only need to run the loop slightly faster than you opponent to prevail.

 

[Dane Burns]

What should you do when a stoppage occurs at very close quarters, and either a TRB drill doesn't work or there is no time to perform? Drop the gun? Try to retain it somehow? Throw it behind you and fight on?

In very close quarters, less than 10 feet or so, you won't have time for a TRB before you are in a CQB scenario. That is why CQB and H2H techniques are vital in a violent encounter. The closer you are to your opponent the more likely your gun will malfunction from contact with you or your opponent in a dynamic situation.

There are all kinds of learned skills that enable you to use a handgun as a conatct weapon. Bottom line I am keeping mine in my hand or putting it back into my holster (if time allows a speed reholster) till I get the distance I need to use the handgun effectivly again.

 

[Clay]

Contact distance is where a revolver rules, as well as a full size 1911A1. I carry a Glock, which is a piss poor excuse for a contact weapon. A 1911A1 with an Alternative Force Block is probably the best thing to have when fighting in close quarters, because you have a viable striking weapon already in your hand-no need to worry about what to do with a malfunctioning weapon, or transistioning to something else, at least until you actually have a little distance i.e. time..
Training and Tactics are obviously a must, provided we don't complicate things, and end up taking away the advantage of knowing what we are doing.

 

[Clay]

I understand the idea of having several tools in the toolbox, so to speak, but it is also possible to have too many. This is why many martial artists get their asses kicked on the street. They spend more time deciding which kick or punch to use, while the guy that knows two or three simple moves is busy winning the fight.

 

[FortyFive]

I am very happy the thread turned out so well, we learn much from the conversations of the well informed and seasoned people who contribute. Thanks to all!

 

[Mute]

FortyFive. When you got the bullet stuck in the barrel, I assume it was propelled by the primer. Did you not even hear the primer go off? I've had the same thing happen to me with a friend's reloads but I knew right away because I did hear the primer pop but the recoil was not there.

 

[FortyFive]

On 2001-07-10 16:50, Mute wrote:
FortyFive. When you got the bullet stuck in the barrel, I assume it was propelled by the primer. Did you not even hear the primer go off? I've had the same thing happen to me with a friend's reloads but I knew right away because I did hear the primer pop but the recoil was not there.

No Mute, didn't hear a thing! There were a number of people shooting nearby and I have electronic ear's on! I pay real close attention to the gun when shooting for light recoil that kinda thing. A number of years ago I bought some reloads for my 357 and the same thing happened, and as I recall I didn't hear the primer go off either. My wife can attest to my hearing and not hearing at times<grin>.
This happened to me when shooting my high end Wilson and boy do I pay attention then!
I am guessing my 550B powder got low and I messed up!

 

[CitrusDude]

Looking back on my first reply, looks awfully simplistic after all of the other posts. I only use factory ammo due to this very issue of squib loads. I have SO'd at IDPA matches and have asked someone to stop after the click just to check the barrel. Someone may get pissed at me, but I'm not going to risk someone not understanding the possible issues. After I've had a click, I've reseated the magazine that has not been seated, and when racked no shell casing comes out, I know I screwed up on the mag insertion. If the mag is seated properly, and a shell casing comes out, I take time to figure out what is going on.

Steve

 

[Dane Burns]

A 1911A1 with an Alternative Force Block is probably the best thing to have when fighting in close quarters, because you have a viable striking weapon already in your hand

Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree, no hand gun is a acceptable weapon in CQB as an alternative to a knife or even a club. BTDT and they (handguns) SUCK! A 1911 won't loose a slide as easily and it weighs more than a Glock but either for CQB, is a POS.

 

[Dane Burns]

This is why many martial artists get their asses kicked on the street. They spend more time deciding which kick or punch to use

I'll disagree with that too. The ACTUAL reason martial artists get their asses kicked is because they never fight. If they do it is never full contact. Take any formally trainied martial artist that also takes part in REAL NS, full contact fighting and he'll be a FULL can of whoop ass on the street.

That little catalog of decisions will give you a headache in just as many ways as they can count. I think the declared problems with decisional branching of physical skills is highly over rated by those who can't.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-07-10 22:51 ]</font>