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We all like the 1911 design, and though the basic design has been adopted by several agencies, and is preferred by many professionals and gunsmiths, there are many differing opinions regarding how best to utilize the 1911 platform for a particular mission.
The FBI specified a detailed list of features, including a S/A magwell, Wilson bulletproof parts, Nowlin barrel, and 20lpi serrations. They also specified a maximum 1.5” group at 25 yds (I think) with issue Golden Sabre ammunition.
The MEU(SOC) pistol was designed with a much different approach. Utilizing both GI and “Gunsmith” style parts, the MEU(SOC) pistol uses a beavertail, but no checkering or mag-well, and is much more “utilitarian” (Meaning it ‘aint as pretty).
Several gunsmiths offer “FBI spec” packages, or similar “tactical Packages. Dane burns has his Kimber “FED” package, which he advertises as a practical weapon without the needless “frills” of the FBI gun, for a significantly cheaper cost.

With the experience of this board, and the personal opinions of several noted “experts” in this area, I would be interested to see peoples opinion of the FBI gun’s specifications, and what you all would consider necessary/desirable or unnecessary in terms of custom features and specs.

Also, I would also like to see opinions on what would make a good base-gun for this purpose. (FBI has used Springfield and Les Baer, MEU(SOC) uses Caspian parts (I think) and the LAPD SWAT uses Colt. Dane Burns prefers Kimber - though Springfields recent offerings seem to have garnered his approval - and Larry Vickers stated in his AH article that he prefers Springfield and Colt.)


So, imagine that you have been contacted by an agency such as the FBI, DEA, or USMC, and they have asked you to give your criteria for a SWAT or tactical sidearm. Let’s hear what gun you’d pick, what you’d change, and why. (Don’t forget to note the mission parameters, such as combat, SWAT, plainclothes, etc. or combinations)
 

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For a tactical type pistol, I think that any of the good manufacturers can be suitable for a base gun. For instance, the Colt 1991, Springfield Mil-Spec, or a base Kimber.
If money is not object, then you can even use a good slide frame set from Caspian, McCormick, Wilson, etc.

I would keep things more on the simple side. I listed some things I like on a tactical gun in another thread, but I'll just summarize here again:
Total reliability job
Heinie Slant Pro sights...tritium optional
Match trigger tuned to a crisp 4.5 pounds
Bar-sto or Kart match barrel with bushing
High ride beavertail
Ambi-thumb safety
Rear of slide serrated to cut down glare.
Top of slide flattened and serrated to reduce glare
Tool steel hammer and sear for maximum durability.
Bar stock small parts for durability (extractor, ejector, plunger tube, etc)
Dehorning of all sharp edges.
Serrated or checkered frontstrap or mainspring housing
Wolff springs
Everything fit to the closest tolerances that will still ensure complete reliability.
Micarta or carbon fiber grips for maximum durability and water resistance.
Entire gun hard chromed and then Black-T'd - this gives the gun a durable finish, and topped off with rust-resistance.
Standard GI plug - full length guide rod would make the gun harder to field strip, and does nothing as far as reliability and function
Magwell not necessary, especially since it makes the gun harder to conceal, but on an open carry gun, it's ok
Light mount ok if it's an open carry gun

These are the highlights of what I would consider the ultimate tactical 1911. This is more of a gun that is carried unconcealed, and can be used for various SWAT and special forces groups. A 1911 like this would be reliable, functional, accurate, durable, and also attractive.
Just my opinions...
 

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I'll post pictures shortly of a early sample test gun, done for a Department and their SWAT people.

There was some time and converstaion spent on the details. Base gun? Kimber Classic, blued.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-12-27 03:18 ]</font>
 

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On 2001-06-21 12:13, Dane Burns wrote:
I'll post pictures shortly of a early sample test gun, done for a Department that if all goes right will get 80 more just like it for their SWAT people.
Is this "department" in the state of Washington?
 

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No disrespect but I don't think there is a department in WA. State with 80 SWAT qualified people;) The dept. is not in Wash. State.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Dane Burns on 2001-12-27 03:20 ]</font>
 

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When I am named head of the FBI [any day now, I think :smile: I would then name a committee, or something, to study what the others got to carry.

Seriously, my choice of a base gun would be a Kimber, put a FED package on it, Heinie night sights, Alessi leather, and a requirement for some real training. Demanding something shoot 1.25" @ 25 yards with Golden Sabers would not be a part of the program. 1.25" in a Ransom equals what in the hands of a shooter?
 

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Bruce, I like your point about accuracy from a Ransom Rest. Unless you plan on carrying your gun in one, I'd prefer to know how well the gun shoots by hand.:smile:
 

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Don't get too fancy if you're going to write specs for the Marine Corps. The Corps has enough trouble scraping together beans, bullets and band-aids for the troops without blowing a wad of money on high-speed .45s. :wink:
 

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On 2001-06-21 13:23, Bruce wrote:
Demanding something shoot 1.25" @ 25 yards with Golden Sabers would not be a part of the program. 1.25" in a Ransom equals what in the hands of a shooter?
Theoretically, it would equal 1.25" if the shooter is doing his part. What would you prefer? Something like the 4" that a Glock will do in a rest?
 

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Good Point...I'd certainly be tickled to death to hold a consistent 1.25 @ 25 :eek:

I know there are a lot than can do better...Just for ME!

...It would be quite good!!!

:wink:
 

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No, I would not prefer a Glock, LW, although I have seen more than 1 of those inaccurate Glocks take money from boys with far more accurate, and expensive, toys.

Would you prefer a 1911 that worked, but shot 1.50" @ 25 yards, or the Baer contract pistols the FBI got some of...which met the criteria for the test at the time?
 

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Hell, I'll take 3" @ 25yds if it will go bang everytime. Reliability is number one.
 

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On 2001-06-21 19:05, LW McVay wrote:
[quote:2lt2a959]
On 2001-06-21 17:55, Bruce wrote:
Would you prefer a 1911 that worked, but shot 1.50" @ 25 yards, or the Baer contract pistols the FBI got some of...which met the criteria for the test at the time?
[/quote:2lt2a959]

Not sure of what you are asking me Bruce. Are you asking me if I would rather have a Baer or a SA Pro Model?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: LW McVay on 2001-06-21 19:17 ]</font>
 

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LW, I have gotten this off topic. For this I apologize to the poster who started the thread. You seem to want to play now, I really don't. My point was, there are pistols that have met the accuracy criteria set forth by certain government agencies, but have not been reliable in a production run.

Accuracy is, more often than it should be, a sexy sales job. Give someone who can't dope wind a magical mystical 1/4moa rifle, on a day where the flags are popping, and you are lucky to have a minute rifle. Take it to 1,000 and the problem grows exponentially.

Same holds true with pistols. If there is a need for a 1.25" @ 25 yard Golden Saber shooting pistol, then I guess it is a good criteria. I haven't seen the FBI shoot stats to know how many engagements they have had at 25 yards, or how necessary it was to shoot 1.25" in those fights. Maybe you have those numbers?
 
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