[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello.

As I begin this, I "know" what I want to say, but am not sure if it'll come out right! I do NOT want it to sound like I'm bashing other type handguns. That is neither the point nor the intent.

I've read and heard others opine that the day of the 1911 and P35 are over and that while they "were good guns in their day," they are now "obsolete." While it was never stated directly, I THINK that these folks are really trying to say that they think the single-action autopistol is out of date. Mostly, I hear this from the younger guys. It strikes me that they think holding more rounds than the HP's normal 14 in 9mm or the 1911's (.45ACP)
8 (or 9) and having either a double-action for the first shot or some other kind of action makes the gun better and they go on about how "there's no safety to fumble" on some when compared to our favorites.

To me, single-action "cocked and locked" carry is perfectly safe and I've NEVER seen one go off all by itself. I've personally been in several "deadly force scenarios" where the pistol (either a Browning or a 1911) came out and was about to be fired when my opponent immediately ceased doing that for which he was about to be shot. (In one case, three of them.) I am sure that I'm NOT the most seasoned "gun fighter" around, yet I had no problems!

On several occassions, I have watched some of these fellows shooting at the police range where I worked. When trying for accuracy or if allowed during qualification courses, they uniformly cocked the pistol for its "obsolete" single-action qualities that we get from shot number one! One notable exception was a fellow sergeant who liked the Glock 17. Over the years, that guy practiced. He not only had the desire to be a really "poison" shooter, but the will to do the work required!

In the back of my mind, I keep noting that the purpose of the handgun is to launch a specific projectile to a given target. To me, nothing has come along in the semiauto to better the single-action automatic in that regard.

While I kind of think that the guy has a puffed up opinion of himself, Massad Ayoob, once remarked, "We tend to stay with what we started with." Perhaps that's part of it? I started with single-action semis because that was what was there unless one wanted an S&W M39 or a P38 Walther.

Anyway, what is your opinion of these two premier single-action pistols as being obsolete? I know that I do not and will continue to use, trust, and depend upon my Hi Powers and ".45 automatics" until something truly "better" comes along. I strongly suspect that where learned men go into harm's way and have a choice, either of these two are likely to be there.

Best.

 

[Spackler4013]

I've heard arguments like that and I don't buy it. There is no evidence to support it. If the 1911 is obsolete, why are more companies than ever before producing them? Kimber is getting $700, $800, $1000 and up for their factory guns. I'm sure they are not moving the units that, say, Glock is moving, but the fact that Kimber, Springfield Armory, Para, Colt, etc., are all producing great 1911s really says something, about both the ingenius design and it's unflagging popularity.
I think it's the same deal with the P35, but to a lesser extent. The Hi Power was never as popular at the 1911, and that's too bad. I know as soon as I picked one up, I had to have one.
I was just thinking, I wonder what a Kimber or Springfield-produced P35 would be like? Sweet, I'll bet.

 

[VoceNoctum]

I've heard it too many times "you carry it, with the hammer cocked?"
It's an appearance thing, like cocked and locked is "ready to go/kill" whereas double action guns are "safe" like either way the guns' not a weapon.
::shrug::

The Hi-power never captured the market, because it wasn't "our" gun. The 9mm, it's not "our" cartridge. It was too early for the "wonder 9" stage, and yet, the single action probably killed it when that time came.
If someone says "I'm looking for a .45" that means "I'm looking for a 1911" in most people's minds. Even with H&K, SIG, heck, even Beretta making good guns.
The Hi-power doesn't have that tie to the 9mm.

 

[recondoc]

After reading a similar posting elswhere, I started thinking about this alot. First, it should be noted that I have been shooting HPs for about the last 10 years. This is a drop in the bucket compared to some of you out there. As time goes by though, I find myself shooting other pistols less and less. They just don't hold my interest. I should preface this by letting you know that I am the trademaster...or was at least. For the longest time, I wanted to own one of every pistol made while on a one to two pistol budget. I would get one, shoot it for a few months, fix it up a little and then trade it off for the next fancy little beauty to catch my eye. My wife commented on this once and about why I couldn't just keep one and shoot it regularly. My reply was "Honey, I can do it with guns or I can do it with women, take your pick." Argument won.
I guess now, as I get older, it's a little easier to settle in with my High Powers. Now it's just a matter of which caliber. I've seen all the bells and whistles available and I've tried all the wonder guns. But lady HP gets me back each time. She's quick pointing, easy to handle, and reliable as all hell. (Total reliability is a rare attribute in todays pistol market)
I believe that I have heard more negatives about cocked and locked carry in my life, both with Colt's and Brownings, from people who have never used the method.
Usually there are two types involved in this. The first are the new generation of LE or CCW shooter who have been told by so called "experts" that cocked and locked it too dangerous a way to carry. They never even consider it again because they were told it was BAD. The second, is usually the same type of shooter coming from the military. I don't know how many times I had it drilled into my head when we still used 1911s on duty. Carry it with the hammer down on an empty chamber with a full mag inserted. This doctrine was developed due to a number of idiots who would try to spin a cocked and locked 1911 like John Wayne. Even today with the issue of the Beretta, that same carry doctrine is still in place. There is a third offshoot sect in these anti cocked and locked carry detractors. They are the ones that believe and even teach people that a Colt with an oversized safety is the ONLY pistol sutable for C&L carry.
All of these add up to a lot of people talking about something that they really have no clue about. I don't go around discussing flight characteristics of ICBMs for good reason. I'm clueless in that department. These detractors should consider their personal knowledge limitations as well.
Best

 

[Guest]

Stephen A. Camp, my friend, what you are refering to is the development of rote skills. Rote skills are memorized skills that become automatic. In other words, you have developed your handling of a single action pistol to the point that it is a rote skill. I do not see many shooters that are interested enough to reach the memorized skill level. If my skills were at your level I would automatically apply the safety after loading the chamber and as soon as shooting stops. Sorry for the long winded expanation but I feel it is important for other readers. Best and regards, Richard

 

[Rob Garrett]

I find it interesting that there are some who would never carry a Smith 9 or a Glock 9, and who complain about the 9mm round, but are in love with the Hi Power platform and often carry a BHP with no concerns. While it does not meet reason, I think I understand it......

Rob

 

[Guest]

Rob Garrett, that isn't me. I prefer big bores but I shoot BHP 9mm pistols better and faster than any other handgun. Regards, Richard

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Mr. Garrett. No, I even like 9mm...in certain loadings.
I have no problem with it as a defensive round and have seen both it and .45ACP used against felons. Though a very, very limited exposure first-hand, I could see no great difference in effect: Hit good and the felon went down. Periphreal hits from either did not "stop" unless the bad guy opted to do so. I suspect that the forty-five in its better loading is shot-per-shot more effective than the best 9x19mm loads, but either require placement and the HP lets me do that pretty well.

Best.

 

[CCM]

Please take this with a grain of salt, I'm no expert, but more a student of life, I'm also new to the internet and my posting skills suck so bare with me.

Richard, I agree with what you say about rote skills.

During my police work days, the department I worked for had a very liberal carry policy and actually the officer had to provide his own duty gun (med. sized 150 officer department). You could purchase a firearm from an approved list of duty weapons. I kinda went with a weapon that is as close to single action as you can get, the squeeze cock P7M13 and loved it (still carry the thing but am developing a love of the Browning Hipower). About 1/3 of the department (I stay in touch with the firearms instructors) still carries some form of 1911 (Colt Springfield, Kimber or Baer) and 5 guys carry Hipowers. The rest of the department carries Glock and Sigs by choice.

Its funny, I like what Mr. Garrett mentioned, I was carrying my 9mm P7 and decided that I needed a bigger round. At this point in my career, I had been carrying the squeeze cocker for many years. Well I tried Glock, Sig etc etc, and ended up going back to the P7. The reason, it might be a small round, but I could always hit with it! Probably the reason why those non 9MM fans Mr. Garrett spoke of, like to carry the Browning.

Sorry for all the rambling, but back to the question at hand. If the cocked and locked platform is inferior or obsolete, then why do all of these "special" units go back to them. The FBI issues the Glock, but there HRT guys and SWAT guys have cocked and Locked 1911's. The United States Capital Police (they protect the Senate and Congress) issue Smiths and Glocks, but there Tactical guys carry Browning Hipowers and there is talk that they are going to transition from the Hipower to a 1911 platform.

Sounds like the Cocked and Locked platform is alive and well in some areas of Law Enforcement!

Thanks for letting me ramble,

Chuck

 

[viesczy]

IMNSHO, the single action design is PARSECS better then any DA or DAO (to me the Glock trigger is a long mushy SA FWIW).

Now I do carry both pistol designs and I am confident enough in my handling to at least not shoot myself in an altercation :grin:, but the single action is my choice. Strangely though, the linear single action trigger is something that I am not as adept with as the pivotting single action trigger. My HP and Glocks RUINED my linear trigger pull!

I think I should sue someone or something! :wink:

Derek

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: viesczy on 2001-05-11 11:39 ]</font>

 

[Desert Dog]

Nice post Stephen. I agree 100% with your sentiments. When I first read the Farnam 1911 garbage, I was tempted to edit it out of my post, as it is just plain non-sense. But I think people should read the entire text and decide for themselves whether they agree or disagree. It did make me consider just how objective Farnam's advice is. Actually, it kinda surprised me that he would make such a ridiculous remark.

If anyone wants to read the Farnam comments, look here.


DD

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Desert Dog on 2001-05-11 13:20 ]</font>

 

[Glimmerman]

Warning: I'm about to ramble :smile:

FYI - Someone stated that the military carries their Berettas with a full mag, safety on, chamber empty. Maybe in the other services. Here in the Air Force Security Forces, we carry our Berettas with one in the pipe, safety off.

In my opinion, Farnam (or however you spell his name) is a dolt. Yup, a dolt. The 1911 obsolete? Please. I don't think I need to explain to you guys the reason why it's not.

My stepfather is an active advocate of the .45 round. Its the only round he carries. However - he does own a Browning HP. He claims its the ONLY 9mil he will EVER carry. "Ergonomics, reliability, calm recoil, and the damn thing just looks cool." - His quote. I happen to enjoy the .45, the .40, and the 9mil. Each has its purposes. If I had to chose, I'd probally go with the .40 - a great median between the .45 and the 9.

Just my .02 cents
Glimmerman

 

[Jim Richardson]

For some, discussions of this sort move from opinion to theology. I've noticed this in particular with owners of one specific pistol. Judging from their handles (which I realize can be missleading) and their signatures, these folk tend to be younger and to own (or profess to own) only the one specific brand. Either you are of their religion or you are a heathen, damned to the eternal flames and a pervyor of heresies.

A pistol that has been in continuous production for 60-80 years, and that still can be sold at the same price point as the newest religion, is not obsolete. It was simple a century ahead of its time.

 

[CCM]

Jar,

Well said! You said in a few lines what I was trying to get out in about 4 paragraphs.

Chuck

 

[Clay in Mo]

I agree with Richard on the development of rote skills. While this can be a blessing it really makes you feel foolish when you pull a semi-auto shotgun down from your shoulder and try to break it open to take the next shot :smile:. My son and friends want me to get in this century with the next pistol that I buy but I think that I will stay the single action.

 

[38 Super Combat Commander]

I think the 1911 and the Hi Power are the best Pistols in the world,Hands down/ Bar none!!!!!!!

 

[Gerald McDonald]

Hello Gentlemen I think to say the 1911 or the HP are obslete is either uninformed or extremely biased. I feel if truth be known you will find the makers of firearms such as Glocks have gone to that design on a cost basis, much the same as makers use stampings instead of forging and milling. On the issue of cocked and locked I recently traded of a Glock that while it was a great shooter I was worried that it would erode my rote skills ( gonna remember that word ) in real life concealed carry and cause me to do something dangerous. I practice weekly so that if it ever comes down to it I will (hopefully)use my handgun effectively and safly. There may be truth to using what you started with as my first centerfire auto was a Colt 38 sup.
Thanks
Gerald

 

[VoceNoctum]

I've long been a proponent that the bad press of the 9mm is because they showcase shooting's where they used the worst 9mm rounds available for them. I carry a .45, and don't think a 9mm is as good, but I don't think it's a useless round because of the stories I've heard with 147 gr subsonics. It's always been more popular in Europe, where it's also always been a hotter load than here.

I actually do put my safety on as a reflex when loading the gun in a non-firing stance. I also reflexivly put the safety on when setting the pistol down or holstering.

I sometimes get too negative about Glocks, not because they're bad guns, but because there is no such thing as a perfect gun. This means I tend to go the opposite path, sometimes seeming to "bash" Glocks. I think Gaston's ego problem is the root of most of my problems, but I do think it's a good gun. (Though, realistically, the gun performs as a Single Action only, no second strike, 5 lb trigger. The same people that won't carry cocked and locked WILL carry the equivalent of "cocked and unlocked with the grip safety pinned on an 80 series gun")

 

[Donnie]

DD

Is that quote from Farnam himslf or is it from a student/friend? I'm taking an advanced handgun class from him next month and have read most his webpage including the tips/lessons section where I'm guessing this came from. IIRC in more then one of these he has a great deal of praise for the 1911. I remember reading one where he was training some spooks and they all carried 1911's and he said something to the efffect of "people who work in unholesome/unfriendly environments seem to alaways to choose the 1911" and he aggreed with their choice.

I notice that the 1911 refrence is in quotes, which leads me to believe that it is not John who is speaking but rather a student/friend who emailed him some observations. Thats my take on it anyway...when I meet him next month I'll ask :smile:

Donnie

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello, Donnie. Welcome. Let us know what Mr. Farnam says. It doesn't really matter to me if he said it or a student. I was just wanting to draw out opinions.

Best.