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What is the secret of a good trigger on a HP and who is doing them and how much?
Trigger job?
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Dane:
I've been doing some research before sending my HP out for some work. Here are a short list of 'smiths specializing in the HP
Kim Ahrends
Richard Heinie
Jim Garthwaite
Kurt Wickmann
EGW/Geo Smith
Wayne Novak
are probably the most well known. I also looked up the following guys
Pete Carber/CAC
Don Williams/Action Works
Randy Lee/Apex Tactical
I suspect the magazine disconnector contribute somewhat to the poor trigger action as it drags on the magazine body. The other offending part is the trigger transfer bar (sear disconnector) located in the slide. I don't have the prices handy for all of these guys, but they are similar to the prices for a 1911 trigger job.
Thong
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tcao on 2001-04-23 13:56 ]</font>
I've been doing some research before sending my HP out for some work. Here are a short list of 'smiths specializing in the HP
Kim Ahrends
Richard Heinie
Jim Garthwaite
Kurt Wickmann
EGW/Geo Smith
Wayne Novak
are probably the most well known. I also looked up the following guys
Pete Carber/CAC
Don Williams/Action Works
Randy Lee/Apex Tactical
I suspect the magazine disconnector contribute somewhat to the poor trigger action as it drags on the magazine body. The other offending part is the trigger transfer bar (sear disconnector) located in the slide. I don't have the prices handy for all of these guys, but they are similar to the prices for a 1911 trigger job.
Thong
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tcao on 2001-04-23 13:56 ]</font>
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35 Posts
A trigger job on a browning high power is not as elusive as on a 1911. It is very simple and by-the-numbers.
To do it yourself requires the ability to assemble and disassemble completely, and to cut a flat surface with a honing stone - easy in theory, but difficult for the inexperienced in practice.
1. Disassemble completely
2. The hammer strut is rough, round the sharp edges of the strut.
3. Replace hammer spring with a Wolff 26#. If f using a 24#, check all ammo you may use for reliable ignition before carrying for defense. Some non-US primers may be very hard.
4. Polish the face of the hammer notch with a very fine stone. I like
porcelain.
5. Reduce the height of the full-cock hammer notch to exactly .024" I go .022"-.020" if using a fixture.
6. Maintain the 90 degree angle on the sear, hone to smooth-as-glass, and
slightly chamfer the lower edge of the engagement face.
7. Remove mag safety from trigger, or use a C&S wide trigger. The C&S does not reduce trigger pull, but makes it feel lighter by having a wider face. If using a C&S, you will probably have to remove a tiny bit of material from the trigger lever to get the trigger to reset. The C&S seems to sit a fraction higher than factory. If using a C&S, polish the sides as it tends to be rough cast. Also insure it pivots freely on the
trigger axis - sometimes the left and right side are a hair out of
parallel.
8. You may opt to replace the 3 coil trigger spring with a 2 coil Wolff spring.
9. Polish the trailing edge of the trigger bar where it rides in the frame. Polish the bottom of it if there are mould marks.
10. Polish the sear spring where it engages the sear, and the surface of the sear it contacts.
11. The tab on the front of the trigger is an over travel stop. It can be bent downward slightly. On some guns, depending on fit, a long pin the same diameter as the retainer for the mag safety plunger can be installed in the hole, which acts as a trigger stop.
12. You may optionally reduce the mass of the hammer by undercutting it and bobbing it about 3 serrations. This undercut theoretically will reduce lock time, but the primary reason I do it is to reduce potential for hammer bite. I avoid ring (commander) hammers as they extend lower and bite more.
To do it yourself requires the ability to assemble and disassemble completely, and to cut a flat surface with a honing stone - easy in theory, but difficult for the inexperienced in practice.
1. Disassemble completely
2. The hammer strut is rough, round the sharp edges of the strut.
3. Replace hammer spring with a Wolff 26#. If f using a 24#, check all ammo you may use for reliable ignition before carrying for defense. Some non-US primers may be very hard.
4. Polish the face of the hammer notch with a very fine stone. I like
porcelain.
5. Reduce the height of the full-cock hammer notch to exactly .024" I go .022"-.020" if using a fixture.
6. Maintain the 90 degree angle on the sear, hone to smooth-as-glass, and
slightly chamfer the lower edge of the engagement face.
7. Remove mag safety from trigger, or use a C&S wide trigger. The C&S does not reduce trigger pull, but makes it feel lighter by having a wider face. If using a C&S, you will probably have to remove a tiny bit of material from the trigger lever to get the trigger to reset. The C&S seems to sit a fraction higher than factory. If using a C&S, polish the sides as it tends to be rough cast. Also insure it pivots freely on the
trigger axis - sometimes the left and right side are a hair out of
parallel.
8. You may opt to replace the 3 coil trigger spring with a 2 coil Wolff spring.
9. Polish the trailing edge of the trigger bar where it rides in the frame. Polish the bottom of it if there are mould marks.
10. Polish the sear spring where it engages the sear, and the surface of the sear it contacts.
11. The tab on the front of the trigger is an over travel stop. It can be bent downward slightly. On some guns, depending on fit, a long pin the same diameter as the retainer for the mag safety plunger can be installed in the hole, which acts as a trigger stop.
12. You may optionally reduce the mass of the hammer by undercutting it and bobbing it about 3 serrations. This undercut theoretically will reduce lock time, but the primary reason I do it is to reduce potential for hammer bite. I avoid ring (commander) hammers as they extend lower and bite more.
I'd always heard that the trigger on a BHP was MUCH harder to refine than the 1911 and that there were really only a handful of folks to trust to do the work.
I've never used the BHP extensively and after being without one for several years only acquired a couple of my own after being re-enthused by reading Mr. Camp's comments in another forum. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but those I HAVE used over the years have all had acceptable duty triggers after removal of the mag safety.
Always thought it one of the great merits of the piece---the lack of smithing required IF it would feed JHP ammo and IF one could live with the older atrocious fixed sights that made 1911 sights look like high visibility state of the art sights. (Don't have any experience with the newer cast frame pieces wherein the fixed sights have been improved).
I've never used the BHP extensively and after being without one for several years only acquired a couple of my own after being re-enthused by reading Mr. Camp's comments in another forum. Perhaps I've just been lucky, but those I HAVE used over the years have all had acceptable duty triggers after removal of the mag safety.
Always thought it one of the great merits of the piece---the lack of smithing required IF it would feed JHP ammo and IF one could live with the older atrocious fixed sights that made 1911 sights look like high visibility state of the art sights. (Don't have any experience with the newer cast frame pieces wherein the fixed sights have been improved).
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129 Posts
Hello Gentleman Mr Camp should be a saleman for FN . I had never owned a HP ( always 1911s of some brand ) until reading some of Mr Camps comments. Bought an old shooter then quickly sent it to Kurt Wickmann , missed it so much I had to pick up another. I sure hope he doesnt start talking about those hi dollar Sigs
Gerald
Gerald
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2,110 Posts
Hello. Thanks for the kind words. I don't mention my beloved P210 much here as this is the HP forum!
My problem is that I really, really like BHPs and 1911s.
But, guess what?
If I could have but one semi, it would be a 1911!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best.
My problem is that I really, really like BHPs and 1911s.
But, guess what?
If I could have but one semi, it would be a 1911!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Best.
I'll only mention this as I'm not interested in a redux of the ongoing debate over "disabling a safety." I've been able to get excellent trigger pulls either way. If you leave it in, polish the front of your mags where the safety rides.
I started out using the Tom Wilson jigs sold by Brownells. I've since added the Ron Power fixtures. The Power fixture makes it easier for me to reduce the height of the hammer hook/notch than the Wilson although I used it for years before I got the Power. I still prefer the Wilson's for sear & hammer hook engagement "face" work. The rest has been covered above. Just look for burrs, casting marks/ridges and be very careful with the sear spring. It doesn't respond to tuning the way a 1911 sear spring does. Can you say full auto HiPower?
I started out using the Tom Wilson jigs sold by Brownells. I've since added the Ron Power fixtures. The Power fixture makes it easier for me to reduce the height of the hammer hook/notch than the Wilson although I used it for years before I got the Power. I still prefer the Wilson's for sear & hammer hook engagement "face" work. The rest has been covered above. Just look for burrs, casting marks/ridges and be very careful with the sear spring. It doesn't respond to tuning the way a 1911 sear spring does. Can you say full auto HiPower?
Steven,
If ever you need a baby sitter for your P210, you just feel free to give me a call....No Really.....Anytime.....Day......Night.....It won't bother my wife.....I promise it will come back home.....eventually.
Heh Heh Heh.
Just really jealous. I hope to own one some day. Still wouldn't give up Hi Powers though.
Regards
If ever you need a baby sitter for your P210, you just feel free to give me a call....No Really.....Anytime.....Day......Night.....It won't bother my wife.....I promise it will come back home.....eventually.
Heh Heh Heh.
Just really jealous. I hope to own one some day. Still wouldn't give up Hi Powers though.
Regards
Just wanted to thank Mark Graham for the detailed reply on trigger jobs. My local gunsmith (Greg Copeland of Copeland Custom in Ark City, KS) worked on mine and did a beautiful job. But he did admit that he didn't have a lot of experience with High Powers and had to call around to a couple of other gunsmith friends before he started work on it.
I'll print this out for him. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
Chad
I'll print this out for him. I'm sure he'll appreciate it.
Chad
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218 Posts
I rework BHP all over the country. It is not as easy as some would have you believe. My triggers break a 4 3/4 lbs. All my engagements are checked on a microscope. I do things different than the average gunsmith. I do not and will not take any short cuts, as most all my work is used for protection of life and property. I require a written authorization allowing me to remove the magazine safety. Hi Powers I have done have been featured in many national magazines. For any information contact me.
Teddy Jacobson / pistolsmith
http://www.actionsbyt.com
281 277 4008
Teddy Jacobson / pistolsmith
http://www.actionsbyt.com
281 277 4008
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35 Posts
I guess "easy" is relative. My point is, there is no voodoo involved. While some gunsmiths try to pretend there is some kind of mysticism involved in gunsmithing, perhaps to artificially enhance their own importance or to dissuade a potential customer from doing something themselves that they may have paid to have done, I emphatically insist there is not - a gun is simply a mechanical object and not a very high tolerance one at that. It has parts that move, springs that provide tension, and levers and what have you. It is no more complicated than motorcycle or automobile componants. Most are far less complicated than the electronic transmissions autos use today. Most of a gunsmith's work comes from improving the degree of finish where the factory compromised for cost. If you can stone a surface flat and smooth, and have the ability to A&D without damaging parts, there are few guns that the do-it yourselfer cannot do a fine job with, providing a basic mechanical aptitude that could well have come from another trade.
The value of a gunsmiths experience is in the number of guns he's seen of a particular make, so when there is something "not right" its glaringly obvious, while one with less experience may not know something was wrong. Individual guns have their quirks, which is where experience comes in, but don't tell an aerospace machinist how tight gun tolerences are - he's used to dealing with a few more decimal point. And don't tell a jeweler/diamond cutter about degrees of polish - a master gunsmith is still an ametuer in his book.
The facinating thing to me about gunsmithing is how it brings together so many forms of mechanics and art. There is wood work, welding, polishing, chemistry, leather work, optics, engraving, you name it. The gun, as art, brings so many of the guilds together. But please - rocket science it is NOT.
I produce several how-to videos - the FAL being my most popular - (still working on the BHP one) and hundreds of folks have built excellent rifles with the instructions.
For what its worth, the greatest leap in my abilities came from reading a 20 page pamphlet written by Lin "Trapper" Alexiou. It was nothing more than "cut x to .020, and y to .045". Polish here, debur there, install this weight spring here. And you know what - it worked. By the numbers, almost every time. My writings follow the same format and do not require microscopes (although an 10x loupe is nice for my tired eyes)
The value of a gunsmiths experience is in the number of guns he's seen of a particular make, so when there is something "not right" its glaringly obvious, while one with less experience may not know something was wrong. Individual guns have their quirks, which is where experience comes in, but don't tell an aerospace machinist how tight gun tolerences are - he's used to dealing with a few more decimal point. And don't tell a jeweler/diamond cutter about degrees of polish - a master gunsmith is still an ametuer in his book.
The facinating thing to me about gunsmithing is how it brings together so many forms of mechanics and art. There is wood work, welding, polishing, chemistry, leather work, optics, engraving, you name it. The gun, as art, brings so many of the guilds together. But please - rocket science it is NOT.
I produce several how-to videos - the FAL being my most popular - (still working on the BHP one) and hundreds of folks have built excellent rifles with the instructions.
For what its worth, the greatest leap in my abilities came from reading a 20 page pamphlet written by Lin "Trapper" Alexiou. It was nothing more than "cut x to .020, and y to .045". Polish here, debur there, install this weight spring here. And you know what - it worked. By the numbers, almost every time. My writings follow the same format and do not require microscopes (although an 10x loupe is nice for my tired eyes)
I agree with Mr Graham, the basic work is just that, basic. To me its a matter of what do i want to spend time doing. I would rather bang out a blade with the few hours it would take me to get a good trigger job on a HP. Im sure i could do it, but i would rather pay some one else to, and save my time for what i like to do.
To me what seperates folks in gunsmithing, especially pistolsmithing is individual style. I also greatly appreciate some of the "cosmetic" skills some of the pistolsmiths have, simply amazing what Chuck Rogers, Pete Single, Garthwaite, Heinie, Vickers etc.. can do. I appreciate the time and devotion that is obvios to me that they put into there work.
To me what seperates folks in gunsmithing, especially pistolsmithing is individual style. I also greatly appreciate some of the "cosmetic" skills some of the pistolsmiths have, simply amazing what Chuck Rogers, Pete Single, Garthwaite, Heinie, Vickers etc.. can do. I appreciate the time and devotion that is obvios to me that they put into there work.
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218 Posts
If some of you think trigger work is so easy. I have a question for you. CAN YOU TAKE A SEMI AUTO PISTOL WITH A DOUBLE ACTION PULL OF 15 LBS LETS say its a CZ OR A USP OR WHATEVER AND REDUCE THE FACTORY DA TO 8 3/4 LBS, BUT THE FACTORY SINGLE ACTION IS 4 LBS BUT I WANT TO INCREASE IT TO 5 1/2 lbs. NO SPRINGS ARE TO BE CUT JUST USE FULL COIL WOLFF SPRINGS, AND DO NOT PACK THE GUN FULL OF GREASE QUESTION IS AGAIN CAN YOU DO IT?????????????????
IT CAN BE DONE..................................................
I do use a MICROSCOPE
Teddy Jacobson / pistolsmith
http://www.actionsbyt.com
281 277 4008
IT CAN BE DONE..................................................
I do use a MICROSCOPE
Teddy Jacobson / pistolsmith
http://www.actionsbyt.com
281 277 4008
Hold up Teddy, no one is saying it is so simple, its just not so complicated.
You were the first in this thread to use the term "easy". Mr Graham simply stated in his original post that it wasnt as elusive as some would have you believe.
The topic here is the Browning HP, not a CZ or any other DA. Dont let it get under your skin, hell were just talking about a trigger job :grin:
You were the first in this thread to use the term "easy". Mr Graham simply stated in his original post that it wasnt as elusive as some would have you believe.
The topic here is the Browning HP, not a CZ or any other DA. Dont let it get under your skin, hell were just talking about a trigger job :grin:
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22 Posts
It is not so much a matter of how many you have done but how much have you learned in doing it.
As my daddy told me:"If you don't know how it works, you can't fix it".
As my daddy told me:"If you don't know how it works, you can't fix it".
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35 Posts
Is this forum for sharing ideas and information or some kindof contest? If other folks want to use three sprinkles of holy water, a microscope and secret handshake to sell their work, it is of no consequence to me. I'll continue to publish the 1-2-3s of an excellent, safe, 3-4# repeatable hipower trigger job for the home tinkerer, or I'll do it for you. Anything to keep information alive in this dying field is good in my book. Heck, if it wasn't for the gracious help and feedback of other shooters and smiths, many who frequent this board - I'd not be where I am today. I find it much harder to adjust a quadrajet to pass emissions. I understand that there are some who are so insecure about their work and customer base that they need to shroud what they do in mysticism, but it seems to me the membership of this board is not the starry - eyed neophyte who swallows that kind of stuff. People like Tom G, Kurt W, Wayne N, John L, etc - they need no mysticism. They just do great work and are paid accordingly. Whatever, I ramble. G'night.
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