[EricO]

During a type 3 malf. drill, how many prefer or teach to retain the seated mag. (once it has been removed of course) in the strong hand? This opposed to simply dropping it from the gun and recharging with a fresh one.
I'm curious because I don't see many discussions about this and I think it has enough merit for debate.
An advantage would be the obvious, you could use the rounds still in the magazine, which you may still need, and the mag is in hand, closer to insert and recharge with.
A disadvantage would be that the mag. is damaged and your feeding problem would continue.
So, do you grab and retain the seated magazine when you strip it from the well, and place it between your pinky and the grip, then work the action before re-inserting it? ...or do you strip it and let it fall to the ground, work the action and then recharge with a fresh one from your belt?
All of this or course, is after you've run like hell behind cover, or used some other alternative force if you're close enough for it!
EricO

 

[Dane Burns]

Just a thought but what is the priority? If you need a gun at this poiint the best way to solve the problem is with another gun.

Many problems addressed in classes aren't addressed in a reasonable manner if you are talking about fighting.

 

[Shane1911]

Dane's right - if you carry back-up, don't F#@$ around. Many classroom instructors love to show off how quickly they can perform tactical reloads. I love to show them how I can beat them by pulling out a B/U piece.

Your question has merit if you don't carry B/U, however. I strongly believe that after your gun has malf'd, the only thing that matters now is putting additional rounds on target - NOW. Yes, tactical reloads and reloads with retention are and can be used satisfactorily. In my opinion, "satisfactorily" will get me killed. Drop the mag, grab a new one and shoot.

Unless you have practiced tac reloads to the point where it is reflexive or "muscle memory", you will end up worrying about where to put the dropped mag, or how to hold it, or what pocket to put it in, or......

I have practiced tac reloads for years and I am damn quick. In all those years, I have never done a tac reload without some part of my conscious mind thinking about "how" I am doing it - even if it is only for a few hundredths of a second. In other words, it has not become "second nature" to me - and the time I spend thinking about the "how", should be spent shooting whatever is causing me to drop mags in the first place.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shane Kropf on 2001-04-18 08:59 ]</font>

 

[Rosco Benson]

On 2001-04-18 08:58, Shane Kropf wrote:
Dane's right - if you carry back-up, don't F#@$ around. Many classroom instructors love to show off how quickly they can perform tactical reloads. I love to show them how I can beat them by pulling out a B/U piece.

But can you beat them when they're doing a "speed/emergency" reload? The tactical load is for after-action or during what clearly appears to be a lull (and is best performed behind cover). While I'm all for going to one's backup (if present) if one's primary weapon breaks or malfunctions, it seems more expedient to simply RELOAD one's primary weapon if it runs dry (particularly if it is an autopistol...with revolvers, the slower speedloading process may make the "New York reload" more viable).

Also, since most people who carry a backup carry a smaller, often less powerful piece, that is harder to shoot well, it makes sense to stay with one's primary weapon if all that is required to do so is a speed load.

Apples to apples and backup presentations to speed (not tactical) loads.

Rosco

 

[Dane Burns]

My point was only at a level 3 malfunction do I pull a B/U. Most anything else can be solved with a speed load as needed.

Hackathorn has said many times that the IDPA tac load will become the tactial mistake of the decade, just as the speed load did for IPSC. The key is to know when to use either adroitly. Again what is yur priority? Do you need ammo? Is there a lull in the fight? Is maintaining ammo and mag a serious concern in your fight? Do you just need to continue shooting?

Train like you'll fight. Because you will fight like you train.

Like I mentioned, "what is the priority": shooting, reloading or a malfunction clearance drill. If the gun has a serious malfunction that takes GAWD several seconds to clear then a B/U is the answer.

Anything past a stovepipe or a fall to slide lock is going to get me a new gun. One of the reasons I build realiable guns....a j frame isn't much of an answer IMO.

 

[Shane1911]

Rosco,

Yes, I can draw a B/U weapon faster than any type of mag reload scenario you can think of.

 

[Rosco Benson]

Hmmmmm...well I'm thinking of you and another shooter starting with your primary weapons in a firing position, locked open empty. On signal, you may drop or stow your primary weapon and draw your backup and hit your target. Your opponent will execute a speed/emergency load and hit his target. The man whose Pepper Popper is on the ground first wins.

Oh, yes...one last thing. Your opponent is Rob Leatham. You did say any situation I can think of :smile:.

Rosco

 

[Mute]

Tee hee. Good one Rosco

 

[Shane1911]

Ohhhhhh, you guys are pretty crafty, huh? :wink:

Provided my B/U is of the cocked and locked variety, and Rob is not using any "trick" mag holders, I will beat him.

Maybe only by the amount of time it takes him to drop his slide, but I can pull my gun just as quick as he can pull a new mag. The difference being that my gun is already cocked, and won't be locked by the time my sights are on target.

(Jeez, I hope Rob isn't reading this! I'd hate to have to prove I'm right on this one.)

:smile: :smile: :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shane Kropf on 2001-04-18 12:42 ]</font>

 

[Rosco Benson]

Shane,
I don't doubt that you can present that backup gun real fast. Depending on how it's carried, probably as fast as you can present your primary weapon. A well practiced shooter can also execute a speed/emergency load of an autopistol muy pronto.

Given that backup guns are often smaller, less powerful pistols, which are harder to shoot well, does it make sense to go to the backup when the primary runs dry or to accept the gnat's whisker of extra time it takes to simply reload the primary? We each must make our own decision on how best to proceed. Even if the reload takes half-a-heartbeat longer, it results in the shooter being able to continue the fight with his full-power primary weapon and STILL have the backup in reserve.

My Rob Leatham postulation aside; this is a personal choice and I have no desire to "convert" anyone. The main thing is that, if one's primary weapon runs dry, one had better be doing SOMETHING if the problem hasn't been solved and the fight is still on. We would both agree that a "tactical" reload is NOT what one ought to be doing. A speed/emergency reload OR going to one's backup gun IS.

Rosco

 

[Shane1911]

"My Rob Leatham postulation aside; this is a personal choice and I have no desire to "convert" anyone. The main thing is that, if one's primary weapon runs dry, one had better be doing SOMETHING if the problem hasn't been solved and the fight is still on. We would both agree that a "tactical" reload is NOT what one ought to be doing. A speed/emergency reload OR going to one's backup gun IS."

Rosco


Rosco - Absolutely 100% agree with your above commentary. I think you have peaked my curiousity however. I think I may have to grab my timer, and see what Mr. Leatham is up to one of these days. Note - I do not know Rob personally - and I am not meaning to imply that I do...but it might be a neat experiment! :smile:

 

[EricO]

Yes, everything revolves around the priority of the moment. I needed to set up the actual scenario more specifically it seems.
Interestingly this was turned into a "tactical" reload debate slightly, and I hadn't really looked upon it that way, although yes, it seems like it is. I haven't thought out all the implications but I was coming from the angle of - why drop it if you didn't know the condition of your spare mag/s (whether they were still on you) and taking into consideration low light conditions (if you dropped it and no-spare.) This would obviously be with no backup handgun and a lull in the action allowing you to deal with the malfunction.
I'm making this too complicated for myself aren't I?
EricO

 

[Just a GI]

Getting back in the fight is the most important thing as Dane and Rosco have said. On a side note, this is especially important if you're the only good guy around IMHO. Bring your weapon back to full readiness and if you have the opportunity then police up your ejected mag.

I think that the type of reload you're going to do is very much situation dependant. There are times when tac reload is important and necessary, but that's mainly for military personnel IN MY OPINION.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Just a GI on 2001-04-19 16:54 ]</font>

 

[Denny Church]

If one is able, and of the inclination, I suppose that if one should carry mirrored (in caliber and type- not model), or slightly off mirrored (position), the argument of a tactical reload, or size of B/U, no longer matters, right?

Beyond this, without a rifle, a world of hurt is generally coming, isn't it?

Denny

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Denny Church on 2001-04-19 21:56 ]</font>

 

[G. Kennedy]

Something an instructor said when I was in the military has always stuck with me..."Situation dictates what you will do..."

First, start with the basics, build on them.
Add to your reportoire with time and experience....make sure it's quality...

"Situation dictates"....What if you don't have a B/U but are faced with an immediate threat, do what you must to survive..

"Situation dictates"....If faced with an immediate threat and have a back up which will give you a quicker response to the threat than clearing a malfunction, there's your answer....

Many different problems have multiple answers because "Situation dictates"....

 

[GunzHot]

I'm no tactical guru, but i'll throw in my two cents worth. I agree that a backup weapon is faster, and a smart thing to carry, but a lot of people don't (situations dictate the tactics here). The way I see it (and been trained) it is better to hold onto the magazine if nothing else than for the extra ammo you may or may not need. However, you would want to store/ hold it in a pocket or such that is not normally used for reloads (as the magazine itself might be causing the malfunction) keeping it away from other ready magazines. in other words, don't stick a malfunctioning magazine back in its mag pouch. This advice only makes sense if you are behind good cover. If not then everything goes out the window in favor of more quickly getting back inot the fight!

 

[Chad Ward]

Assuming we all mean the same thing by a Type 3 failure -- a double feed -- the cure I've been taught is Lock/Rip/Work. If I'm going to be dicking around for that long the first priority is cover, second is getting the gun back in action. L/R/W is a two-handed operation, at least for me. That means I want both hands free, not hanging on to a magazine.

Secondly, I wouldn't rule out that the magazine is the cause of the problem to begin with, so if I have a spare I'm sure as hell not putting the original back in.

Given that I've already dropped the original magazine while performing the L/R/W, I don't see any speed advantage to picking it up and trying to reinsert it versus grabbing the spare (and fully charged) magazine.

Drop the magazine and move on.

Chad

 

[Tim Burke]

Type 3? Situation dependent. For a Glock, I'd just remove the magazine and replace it; L-R-W shouldn't be necessary. Doctrine with 1911 seems to be evolving; I've been taught both ways... at the same institution. My current bias is to drop the offending mag, but I usually carry 2 spares. Of course, if it's my last mag, I'm SOL. But if I need my last mag, I'm probably already SOL.