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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I had this message posted on 1911forum.com for a while, just wanted to get the input of the visitors to this forum as well (although I did get some excellent advice from 1911Forum). Didn't know which was the best forum to put this in, so I stuck it here.


After extensive research into the pros and cons of the 10mm cartridge (much thanks to CastleBravo and viesczy for excellent info), I have convinced myself that my next 1911 should be chambered for 10mm. It seems that performance-wise, it is superior to the .45 in most respects (price and availability are another issue, though). However, I am still at ends with myself deciding what platform I want to shoot 10mm from, and whether it is indeed worth it (financially) to acquire a 10mm gun. The main purpose for this gun would be primarily for carry (once I am old enough to even have a CCW) and possibly for hunting. Here is what I've been thinking about:

OPTION 1: P-16 CONVERTED TO 10MM
The benefit of this option is mainly the hi capacity (18+1 I think?). I have read the posts from viesczy on his conversion, and my main question here concerns the magazines. I have a P-14 w/ 5 hi-caps; will these hi-caps take and feed 10mm, and fit in the P-16, or would I need to buy P-16 mags for it? If so, how many rounds of 10mm does a P-16 magazine hold? Also, if I did go the P-16 route, I would probably want to get a Commander length slide and Bar-sto barrel for carry purposes; does the recoil on a Commander length 10mmm suck badly? I also understand that sight acquisition is faster with shorter slides/barrels.

OPTION 2: SINGLE-STACK CUSTOM
In this case, I would probably purchase all the parts myself from Brownell's and Caspian, and have my gunsmith assemble all the parts for me. Once again, I am leaning towards a Commander length slide from Caspian, but I would like to hear anyone's experiences shooting 10mm from a 4.25" barrel. The advantage here would be smaller size and weight (especially if I went with Caspian's new titanium frame), which would make it more suited for carry purposes. However, I have read several posts about 10mm magazines (CMC and Metalform) that have had problems feeding-- will this be a big issue?

Another issue/dilemma/big freakin' problem is the price and availability question. I get to shoot a whole lot of .45 for free (on the West Point Pistol team), but if I were to get a pistol chambered in 10mm, I would be paying for it out of my own pocket, which is thin enough already. How much more expensive is 10mm compared to .45 of the same brand/type? Would it behoove me to purchase a reloader if I plan to shoot 10mm? I like the fact that there is such a wide variety of loads for 10mm, which are suited for self-defense or hunting.

Another problem to consider is how 10mm will affect my pistol's lifespan. I understand that parts and components break much faster with 10mm as compared to .45ACP. Has this been a major problem for anyone else? Are there any components that are more suited for 10mm than .45ACP (ramped barrels, AFTEC extractors, etc.)?

Thanks in advance for any advice y'all might have for me. I don't plan to make this purchase until later this year or early next year.

USMA Pistol

P.S.-- TO clear up any confusion from this post:

1) I don't turn 21 until August 2002. I don't really "own" my P-14; my coach is also an FFL dealer who "holds" it for me until I am of age, and I am only allowed to shoot the pistol at the range anyways. I plan to get a Concealed Carry permit for whatever state I happen to be in after graduation (hopefully Texas- Ft. Hood, or Colorado- Ft. Carson).

2) I only plan to buy this pistol AFTER I get my cadet loan in March...I am blowing too much money on guns and booze as it is
 

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Welcome to the world of 10mm. All you need to do to make the P-16 is P-16 mags, ream the chamber for 10mm, and put in a 24lb spring. You might need to tweak the extractor, or just put an AFTEC in. They work.
Nothing wrong with the single stack also. You dont need a ramped bbl, unless you want one. As long as they run, and if set up properly, they will.
As far as cost, buy a case of ammo and reload. There is nothing different about a 4.25 10mm or .45acp except for a smaller diameter bullet. They are both controllable if you know how to shoot. I personally like the 10mm, so I say go for it. Be safe, DC
 

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Glad to hear you are considering joining the 0.1% Club! :grin:

OPTION 1: P-16 CONVERTED TO 10MM
The benefit of this option is mainly the hi capacity (18+1 I think?). I have read the posts from viesczy on his conversion, and my main question here concerns the magazines. I have a P-14 w/ 5 hi-caps; will these hi-caps take and feed 10mm, and fit in the P-16, or would I need to buy P-16 mags for it? If so, how many rounds of 10mm does a P-16 magazine hold? Also, if I did go the P-16 route, I would probably want to get a Commander length slide and Bar-sto barrel for carry purposes; does the recoil on a Commander length 10mmm suck badly? I also understand that sight acquisition is faster with shorter slides/barrels.
Personal opinion: don't do this. If you are going to go 10mm, go at least 5" length and don't use a Para-Ordinance as a base. IMHO, the guns are too hit-and-miss quality wise. If you have to have a hi-cap 10mm get an STI/SVI... I forget the capacity but with 140mm magazines it is something ludicrous.

OPTION 2: SINGLE-STACK CUSTOM
In this case, I would probably purchase all the parts myself from Brownell's and Caspian, and have my gunsmith assemble all the parts for me. Once again, I am leaning towards a Commander length slide from Caspian, but I would like to hear anyone's experiences shooting 10mm from a 4.25" barrel. The advantage here would be smaller size and weight (especially if I went with Caspian's new titanium frame), which would make it more suited for carry purposes. However, I have read several posts about 10mm magazines (CMC and Metalform) that have had problems feeding-- will this be a big issue?
I think the good single-stack solution (and I favor single-stack guns, period) is either (a) If you want the best new gun and care nothing for tradition have a .40S&W Kimber converted to 10mm. This is simple and, assuming a studly pistolsmith with produce fabulous results, or (b) Get a Colt Delta Elite because it is cooler. Colt 8-round magazines and CMC 9-round magazines both work well in my experience. I'd replace the Colt springs with stronger Wolff units, but in my experience the CMC magazine springs are almost TOO strong. If you are having a pistolsmith build you a full-house gun talk to him about it and let him gather the parts to build the gun.

I LIKE recoil and loud noises coming from my gun, but there just isn't any way a titanium-frame 1911 won't be a total b*tch to shoot. More personal opinion, I don't think that 10mm is a good caliber for small guns... aside from the recoil/blast issues is the fact that 10mm seems to lose TONS of velocity as you reduce barrel length. For example, here is what happens to Silvertip ballistics as you cut down barrel length:

Glock 6": 1320 FPS
5.5" (advertised): 1290 FPS
Colt 5": 1230 FPS [right @600 ft-lbs, BTW]
Glock 4.6": 1200 FPS
Glock 3.9": 1130 FPS

Another issue/dilemma/big freakin' problem is the price and availability question. I get to shoot a whole lot of .45 for free (on the West Point Pistol team), but if I were to get a pistol chambered in 10mm, I would be paying for it out of my own pocket, which is thin enough already. How much more expensive is 10mm compared to .45 of the same brand/type? Would it behoove me to purchase a reloader if I plan to shoot 10mm? I like the fact that there is such a wide variety of loads for 10mm, which are suited for self-defense or hunting.
Unless you shoot 9mm surplus ammo, getting a reloader is always a good idea for saving money (or more precisely, doing more shooting for the same money). The cheapest 10mm practice ammo that I've heard good things about is Georgia Arms that runs ~$9/50.

Another problem to consider is how 10mm will affect my pistol's lifespan. I understand that parts and components break much faster with 10mm as compared to .45ACP. Has this been a major problem for anyone else? Are there any components that are more suited for 10mm than .45ACP (ramped barrels, AFTEC extractors, etc.)?
With quality parts and an apropriate recoil setup, gun longevity is No Big Deal. Go cheap or underspring your gun and all bets are off. An AFTEC extractor is a good idea, however; Dane should have put one in my Delta Elite by now... :razz:

Random thought: if you want to get the most *usable* horsepower out of a commander-sized 1911 I'd suggest a lightweight 9x23 instead. It is an even more esoteric caliber than 10mm, but the prices would be about the same for the ammo and Wincester does make excellent factory ammo for it.
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CastleBravo
Visit The Pit: http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/

P.S. Beat Navy!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-10-14 21:34 ]</font>
 

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First off, I own a DE and also a SVI switch barrel 40/10. I shoot IPSC and load my own ammo on a Dillon 650.

IMO, go with a .45 for something you'll shoot often, simply because you have free ammo now. Another consideration, there are NO 10 round 10mm mags. Rumors of x brand .45 mags working are false. I've tried it. Yes, you can get 9 round 10mm mags (McCormick).

If you shoot 10mm, you'll have to load your own. Too expensive otherwise. But loading 10mm is EXPENSIVE because there is no supply of once fired 10mm brass. You'll only be able to buy it new ($100 per 1k) or buy a case of 10mm ammo (expensive) and re-use the cases.

Also, get as many .45 cases as you can while you can (free!), ream the crimp from the primer pockets so you can reload it, and it'll last you a LONG time.

If you are dead set on a 10mm 1911, buy a Delta and have it modified to your taste. Put it in the safe until you afford to do it right and you know EXACTLY what you want.

Don't mess with a para (junk! ask me if you want to). You could buy a Kimber .40 and have a 10mm barrel fitted to it for a two-caliber gun, but it'll never say "DELTA ELITE" on the side.

I love the 10mm, but if you want to be able to afford to shoot a handgun enough to develop/maintain a high degree of proficiency, few people can afford to feed a 10mm.

SF
 

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First, welcome to the forum. It is good to know you military boys are getting away from the books for a bit :smile:

I have owned and shot 10mm's for well, I guess a long time now. I love the round. Think it is overrated as a "hunting" round, but still love it. Good flat shooter, but when I think hunting I think hunting for meat, and I want a rifle...or a .35Rem out of my TC.

Dane is building me a 10mm [I threatened to fly out and stay as a houseguest until he said yes, which made his response near immediate], but it is far from my first, third, or even 10th pistol in the safe. Wanted a built 1911 in 10mm for a long time, and, since I am sold on Dane's work...that is why. The 10mm will never replace the .45 in my eyes. I am a true blue .45 nut.

If you reload and have the money to afford a good one, get one! Otherwise, stick with that free .45 ammo...you really cannot beat it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks to everyone for their input. Some people misunderstand me; I already have a .45 (my P-14), I wanted to start shooting something other than .45ACP and 9mm all the time, to increase my versatility with different calibers (which is why I'm sure most of you out there have handguns chambered for more than just good 'ol .45 ACP). Like dpcdiver said, variety is the spice of life, and thank God I'm not married yet :smile: .

I also understand that it will be much more expensive to shoot 10mm than .45ACP (if I had to pay for my .45, which is technically not 'free' (you taxpayers are paying for my shooting education), but I have the time and opportunity to put a few hundred rounds down range every week, once our range is rebuilt). I will, however, have sufficient funds early next year to build my "dream 1911" once my cadet loan comes in, and I'd like to experiment with 10mm. I would also like to start learning more on how to reload, since I am not well-versed on reloading rifle or pistol cartridges.

Once again, the purpose of this pistol would be mainly for carry later on. I already have a nice P-14 that had been smithed by Don Williams of Action Works (www.actionworks.com), which I could use for IDPA/IPSC limited. I might want to use the 10mm for IPSC Limited 10, but that is a minor concern for me. So is hunting (I have a nice Weatherby 7mm Rem Mag for that, although I wouldn't mind trying out hunting with handguns also). With this in mind, I am leaning more towards the single stack option, now that I have thought more of it. A big P-16 isn't the greatest gun for carry.

However, I was interested in much of the information that was being posted on single-stack options. Is a Delta Elite as customizable as a regular .45ACP 1911? Are there as many custom parts suited for 10mm? I also noted that a Kimber .40 reamed for 10mm or fit with a 10mm barrel seems to be a popular option. I was actually considering just buying a forged 1911 frame, and purchasing a Caspian slide (maybe the one that accepts external extractors maybe?) that had a breechface cut for 10mm, buying a Bar-Sto 10mm barrel, and then buying all the rest of the components from Brownells and shipping all of it to Mr. Williams for him to smith, fit, and assemble. Then it would probably be off to Mr. Virgil Tripp for his Cobra Chrome finish. This is just what's been floating in my head recently.

Is the loss in velocity due to a shorter barrel really a huge deal? I know that going from a 5" barrel to a commander sized barrel would reduce velocity by maybe 100-200 fps; how much does this reduce penetration and ft.-lbs of energy? More importantly, how much does this enhance recoil? My concern would be with shot placement and follow up shots more than energy, so how much does the muzzle blast and recoil of the shorter barrel affect tactical shooting? How much does it affect the lifespan of the pistol and its component? Am I not right in saying that a shorter slide makes acquiring sights easier (especially with an AO Big Dot tritium front sight)?

I don't know if I've just been bitten by the "10mm Bug", but it definitely seems like THE round to train with if I want to increase my versatility with different calibers (or maybe .357 SIG). Anyways, thanks for the answers so far, I definitely invite y'all to answer my new questions.

Alexander Garcias
USMA '03

P.S.-- I will probably be up all night hitting the books, just wanted to take some time off learning about what I love best!
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GO ARMY!!!
BEAT NAVY!!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: USMA Pistol on 2001-10-14 23:05 ]</font>
 

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Knockin' Paras are we Castle Bravo? :wink:

Okay, they're mags can be crap--I have 2 full cap P16 mags that are in need of a major attitude re-adjustment, but that's the only complaint I have of my P12, P13 or P16.

Comparing a Para to an SVI is like comparing a SA Mil Spec to a Vickers/Burns custom, ain't a fair comparison!

As for the question about mag usage, I know that I can load .40S&W/10mm fine in a P14 mag, but .45acp doesn't fit into the P16 mag. Where the mag narrows down precludes the .45acp from fitting into the .40/10mm mag. I'd *imagine* that there'd be no problems using the P14 mag in the P16.

Keep with the 5" length.

FWIW, I ran 100 rounds of 10mm ammo (50 of the CorBon Glocktalk.com) through my P16 without a hitch, outside of those 2 twitchy full caps. Glad those aren't my only ones, or I'd be steamed!

If you have the $, custom pistol is the way to go.

Derek
 

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As far as I know there is no difficulty customizing a Delta Elite in terms of part availability. The vast marjority of the "generic" 1911 parts fit the Delta Elite as well as any other Colt.

I KNOW comparing a STI to a Para isn't fair. I just said I wouldn't go with one. Just because I drive an Audi doesn't mean a Kia isn't good for *somebody*. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Soooo... do they still serve pizza pockets and fake McRibs at the mess hall?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
So do you guys suggest going with the single stack option, and getting an old Delta Elite, or going with a Kimber? Are the DE frames/slides forged or cast? Same question, but Kimber (forged or cast)? I know forged slides/frames last much longer than cast ones. Suggest replacing stock slide with a Caspian? How about replacing stock components (recoil springs, extractor, grip safety, etc.) on the DE or Kimber?

CastleBravo, the pizza pockets are still served nice and hot, and the fake ribs are still confusing plebes. You'll be pleased to know that everyone still falls asleep during lectures after lunch (Dean's Hour), and probably less happy to know that plebes have their own telephones and DVD players on their computers nowadays...oh yeah, and plebes don't 'ping' around anymore. They barely even greet, either.

You should be VERY happy to know that both the Pistol Team and the new Combat Weapons Team (USMA practical shooting team) have strong teams this year, and are poised to kick some Air Force, Navy, and Coasty tail this year. Can't say the same about the football team... :smile:

"The Corps has..."

Alexander Garcias
USMA '03

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: USMA Pistol on 2001-10-15 01:12 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Also, what's the difference between a normal Delta Elite and a Delta Gold Cup?

And...what model Kimber would be ideal to build a 10mm out of? Classic Custom? Or something more expensive (Gold Combat?)?

Thanks again for the advice!
 

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Hi USMA Pistol.

You Wrote:
"You should be VERY happy to know that both the Pistol Team and the new Combat Weapons Team (USMA practical shooting team) have strong teams this year, and are poised to kick some Air Force, Navy, and Coasty tail this year. Can't say the same about the football team..."

My plebe son at the USNA has just tried out and was accepted on their pistol team (the current NCAA champion pistol team). Say hi to Sally Talbot for me. Met her at Camp Perry and over on the Bullseye-L list.

Best Regards,
Slo cat

GO NAVY! BEAT ARMY!
 

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I would suggest that anyone looking to build or rebuild Para mags get the +2 kit from Arredondo. It contains everything but the actual mag tube (available elsewhere, including P-O online); new follower, HD spring, base guide, and +2 baseplate. They work fine in my P-16; just DON'T try to put them in a P-14 mag - the base guides are different and you can jam things that should move freely.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Slo Cat--

I'll make sure to haze your son when I see him next semester (just kidding :smile: )! I am not the hazing-type, anyways. Besides, there is much greater satisfaction in beating the soon-to-be-former NCAA pistol champions fair and square- by outshooting them.

So....did you have some advice on 10mm platforms for me? Here's a question: are STI/SV frames much slimmer than Para-Ord frames? Are they any better quality?

Alexander Garcias
USMA '03
 

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USMA Pistol,

I also have been wanting a 1911 single-stack 10mm. I suggest you go with a full (ground-up) custom gun. It will last longer, and can, in every way, be just like you ask. Price would be ~$2000+. For smiths who will do a great job but not take years in a waiting list I would reccommend Tim Bacus, Scott Mulkerin (SDM Fabricating), and of course Don Williams at the Action Works.

If you like the 10mm, I say go for it. At the same power factor the 10mm will have less recoil than the .45, and the sights will get back down faster. And, you obviously do not have to shoot full power all the time, shooting moderate loads I would not think it is any worse in wear than a .45.

As to parts, the only real differences between 10mm and .45 are: Slide, slide-stop, barrel, recoil and mainsprings, firing-pin, and extractor. All other parts interchange perfectly.

For ammo, the aforementioned Georgia Arms is the cheapest I have seen ($150/1k). Reloading will be cheaper. For carry, the 10mm is a great stopper, surely not the least inferior to .45. I would say to go with ProLoad or Georgia Arms Gold Dot 180gr or Hornady XTP 180gr, or, get a custom loading from Mullins Ammunition (I have talked to him about a 200gr XTP load, and he seemed like great guy).

I, realizing my rather considerable limitations as a shooter, may put off my own 10mm project for awhile in favour of a Hi-Power, but you are obviously not under the same limitations, and I would say go for it and be confident you have a great gun in a great calibre.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: telackey on 2001-10-15 11:15 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
telackey, you mentioned that the slide stop is different for a 10mm; why is that? Does the slide stop need to be stronger due to the increased power of 10mm, or does it have a different radius? I know that the extractor is another component that should be changed (pretty sure of this), and the magazines of course. Anyone make 10-rd. 10mm mags?

As far as reloading, I see it as the ONLY economically feasible way for me to shoot 10mm. I like the prices of Georgia Arms, but how reliable is their ammo? How many times can you reload used 10mm cases? I know that the case is pretty strong (considering the pressures 10mm exerts), so how many times could I potentially reuse old 10mm brass? Anyone's experiences with reloading 10mm would be greatly appreciated. I am looking into purchasing a Dillon 550 or 650 once I do decide on what platform I plan to shoot 10mm from.

Also...$2000+ for a full house custom 10mm? Wow! I definitely need to ask Mr. Williams about prices for smithing a 10mm custom! I was thinking that a Kimber .40 reamed for 10mm might not be a bad idea; Kimber has a pretty reliable name in the business...
 

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The slide-stop is a size issue, however, you do want to get the strongest you can. I have heard only the best things about EGW brand slide-stops.

As to ten-round 10mm, I cannot think of any off-hand. 9rd is standard flush-fit. However, many people report good experiences using CMC 10rd Shooting Star .45ACP magazines with 10mm's. They hold 11rds. Most people really like Metalform 10mm mags, and if you buy in quantity they are really cheap, ~$7.50 a piece I think.

I can't help you with reloading, as I do not yet reload myself, but I have heard case life is pretty good, though, like any calibre, it depends a lot upon what proof your loads are.

Reaming a Kimber would not be a bad idea; you could buy about three of them for the same price as a custom gun.
 
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