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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This part of the story is true..the setting. A busy center of town by the sea, crowds of people enjoying the day. A street wide enough for parking on either side and two lane traffic.
The event...a car moving with 3 guys is approached by a female officer. The driver grabs her arm and speeds up dragging her some distance.
As a CCW holder standing a short distance away what should/may you do about helping her. Please no blasting the messenger, your thoughts please. I considered this an interesting true event and it can serve as a training topic! Thanks.
 

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KEEP THE GUN HOLSTERED! What are you going to do with your gun on a busy street full of pedestrians, with a moving target, and a hostage in the way?

Sorry, but I don't consider this a training topic. There should be no discussion on this matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Shane...please email me and explain why you feel this is not to be used as a training topic. Most LEO's use their real life events as training to insure they make no mistakes again. The military does the same. Of course I agree with the no shoot..don't even think about it...but I was looking for an alternative answer. I was hoping for a discussion on this event. We have events take place around here and from time to time civilian's get envolved where they should not, as in a car chase etc. When attending a CCW class tought by LEO's there is much caution issued about certain topics. Appreciate your response though!
 

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On 2001-06-21 11:38, FortyFive wrote:
Shane...please email me and explain why you feel this is not to be used as a training topic. Most LEO's use their real life events as training to insure they make no mistakes again. The military does the same. Of course I agree with the no shoot..don't even think about it...but I was looking for an alternative answer. I was hoping for a discussion on this event. We have events take place around here and from time to time civilian's get envolved where they should not, as in a car chase etc. When attending a CCW class tought by LEO's there is much caution issued about certain topics. Appreciate your response though!
I was not trying to start any controversy over this, therefore I will post this publically, and email you later if you still want me to. There are simply too many situations where guns are not the answer. This is one of them. Therefore, there is no relevant firearms training that would come into play here. I was not trying to be disrespectful in my first reply - but the "what if" scenario you portrayed here would still have most LEOs keeping their weapon holstered. Therefore, it is not in a CCW holders' best interest to become the hero of the day. Common sense should be the first train of thought. Realistically, what do YOU think an armed citizen could accomplish in this situation? Please post your own thoughts to your question. I don't believe there are any alternatives to the situation you described. Some events must simply run their course. I see no way of an armed citizen changing the course of this situation - unless he acts in a very irresponsible, life-threatening, CCW- revoking manner.

I'm not sure what kind of discussion you expected to take place. I re-state my first reply - KEEP YOUR GUN HOLSTERED.

Regards. :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Shane, read the original entry! There is no mention of drawing a firearm or using one. The wording is a little devious, I coupled crowd with ccw! No name was attached to the ccw and I don't have one! It is like our CCW instructor said...if the police stop you for speeding hand them your ccw license with your registration. If you mention I have a gun all hell may break loose.
Thats what happened here, a leo reads ccw and crowd and assumes very much that is so wrong. Still asking, the question I originally posted.
 

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Well we would all hope to be able to stop situations like this, but unless your within arms reach, on the drivers side, the car isn`t moving too fast, and the officer is not obstructing a shot, in the one second window of opportunity you will have as they speed by, i don`t see much of a shot here.. BTW, what happend? -Gilmore
 

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Sorry FortyFive, I still don't understand what you want us to say!? If we all agree that the gun remains holstered, what is there to discuss?

OK, run and chase the car? Carjack the taxi beside you and ram the offending vehicle? Throw stones? Scream for help? Turn your back and pretend you see nothing?

Help us out!!!! What are we discussing?
 
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I would have to side partially with Shane on this issue.
A private citizen armed or unarmed and an off duty or out of juristiction LEO all do not have a legal duty to act.
And all are actually required not to act, unless the incident fits within a very narrow scope of circumstances and they are not displayed in you scenario.

As to the scenario and the topic of the CCW/gun and it's use, it is really meaningless as the car in the crowd is the real danger and the only justification for the use of force. Since you stated that the car is not out of control nor is anyone in direct danger of being struck or killed you do not have a valid reason for the application of force or deadly force, the officer in your scenario from what you have said has not yet fit the description of abduction or kidnapping and you stated that she was released a few feet away. This would probably lead to assault/possible aggravated assault charges, and various endangerment charges and may go further if the officer was on duty and injured, as in obstruction of capacity/duty.
All clearly not defensible for the use of deadly force.
 

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The officer being dragged should be counted on to act in accordance with her training, and the situation should end with her saving herself.

I would dial 911, report it, but my pistol would not be involved. If it was a family member being dragged, I would shoot. Right or wrong, that is what would happen.
 

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On 2001-06-21 14:14, Bruce wrote:
If it was a family member being dragged, I would shoot. Right or wrong, that is what would happen.
Come on Bruce, you might hit your WIFE. Or an innocent by-stander. Don't give the anti's any more reasons to take our guns away. I know this would be a hard thing to watch, but that is the part of the responsibility of CCW. You'd ruin your life, and possibly a lot of other peoples' lives. Carrying a gun has a lot of responsibility to go along with it - you don't need to be told that! You may have to make a tough call once or twice in your life - you can't afford to make the wrong one - or don't carry (IMHO). :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Shane Kropf on 2001-06-21 14:37 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Good response David..we did get information from this exercise and that was what I was after. I fully expected each to respond with don't draw your firearm and call 911. I believe you went into it a little more in depth as an instructor would. Thanks to all for responding.
The officer was dropped after about 40 feet and was taken to the hospitol, she was banged up but not to serious. The 20 year old driver and his underage passengers were caught by the boys in blue.
 

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In the situation listed, the CCW has nothing to do with the proper action. Cell phone and 911, or direct call if you know the number. Information on vehicle and individuals involved, Speed, direction, etc. Stay on the line. Depending on traffic, follow on foot. GLV
 

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Guys, I'm going to do something off the wall and just answer the brother's question. First, I would look for a lic. plate number, second I would dial 911, with the phone line still open I would run over to the officer when they finally fell and aid them however I was able too. I would remove the officer from the street to the sidewalk so noone else ran them over accidently. I would wait for medical personnel and police to arrive. I would make a sworn statement and I would go to court and testify as to what I saw.

Further, I would make sure to tell the 911 operator what I was wearing and that I was armed and I was a good guy. I would leave the gun out of sight and very slowly introduce myself to the responding officers, who I am sure would be pretty worked up by this point (I know I would be in their place).

That's my answer. Good thought provoking post. There was one in combat handguns a few years back. "You're at a swim meet and you see a man looking intently at the swimmers backsides, suddenly he raises a revolver... you are armed with an XYZ, what do you do?" The character in question is a swim meet judge, he is checking readiness and firing a blank pistol to start the match. That was an interesting one too.

I worry much more about using my mind properly than using my gear properly, although both do require full attention to detail.

Jake
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks GLV and Jake, good responses! I know a couple of the police officers here and your right, they would be worked up and rolling, thats for sure. I have offered these guys coffee and eggs at 5 in the morning when they have been on a drug stake out near my house...nice people. We have 3 cops on our street and 3 drug houses nearby that have been raided a couple of times. I will pose this question to our handgun instructor next class..he is a police officer where I live! Lots of stuff comes out in a class much like what David included above. Boy..I sure got to hand it to David for his logic on this situation.
 
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On 2001-06-22 11:43, Jake Salyards wrote:
That's my answer. Good thought provoking post. There was one in combat handguns a few years back. "You're at a swim meet and you see a man looking intently at the swimmers backsides, suddenly he raises a revolver... you are armed with an XYZ, what do you do?" The character in question is a swim meet judge, he is checking readiness and firing a blank pistol to start the match. That was an interesting one too.
Jake
The CH question is an easy one, as an armed citizen you are required to make every attempt to retreat first, if you are a spectator and not obstructed by the armed man you are in effect required to leave the scene before producing your firearm. Alternatively, if the firearm is pointed in a non-threatining direction you are also prohibited from going "guns up", only when the use of the firearm by the Judge in this case became threatining could you make the descision only if you or another person were in direct danger of death or serious bodily harm.

The mere display of a pistol or even an AK 47 does not enable the CCW holder to draw and display their weapon.

Another scene comes to mind, you are a guest at someones home on for a large/formal party. The evening goes well and later a group of armed men appear holding rifles, pistols, and carbines. They run around the room yelling and waving the guns in the air, you see them out of the corner of your eye from the balcony as several of them "lock and load".
They charge in a group out of your sight into the main bulk of the part goers out on the patio. You are armed and you are now at a dead sprint down the stairs as a great many of the party goers look seriously distressed and the people you came with are now in the room full of gunmen.
What do you do?

Well, I can answer as in this case the party was held at a diplomats home in xxxxxx, I was the armed man in fact a Special Agent assigned to protect a group of dignitatries, the armed men were led by the diplomats son -in-law, a colonel in the IDF and they were in fact soldiers there to celebrate, when they went out onto the patio area with our principles and they did open fire into the air with multiple bursts of automatic weapons fire. The estate guards were also soldiers and did not feel the need to let the American Security Team know that the soldiers were there.
They were some very tense moments for us and I really was unhappy.
What would you have done?

You need to be very careful and think before these incidents unfold so that you are properly trained, both legally and physically for the task at hand.
 

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.45, Made my first reply before I read the 'end of the story'. As an EMT, I would render aid, call medics or have bystander make call, report condition of downed officer, etc. GLV
 
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