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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a question that I have asked more than once and I am very curious to hear your choices, likes, dislikes, experiences etcetera.
 

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In .45 caliber, my previous favorite has been Cor-Bon 200 gr. jhp, currently have gone to Federal 230 gr. Hydrashock (aluminum framed Commander.)

Other favorites: Winchester .38 spl. 158 gr. LHP , too bad Dept issues Fed 125 Gr. jhp in that caliber :sad: I also liked CCI 158 gr. Blazer jhp as a practice round.

Quite happy with Fed 180 gr tactical jhp .40 cal duty round, although recoil is snappy in G27.

Tim

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: TimB92020 on 2001-04-13 00:06 ]</font>
 
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In my Commander almost all the time it is full of PMC 38 super 130 GR. FMJ.Have used this ammo for the longest time.In my 10mm I use 200 GR. Black Talons.In my 38 special I also have Black Talons but I forget the grains.The way I look at it,if something works don`t fix it.
 

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In a 9mm I used to load two Mag-Safe 9mm Agent loads, and backed them up with RBCD loads.

In the 40, I just used RBCD Platinums.

In the 45 I used to chamber a Mag-safe Super Swat, and the mag was full of Federal 230 gr. HS. Now I just have the HS. Have to get some RBCD's for this caliber soon and try them out.

I know, frangibles have a bad reputation. The mag-safes aren't very accurate, but they do have certain advantages. Have had much better luck with the RBCD's. Of the bunch, I think these are probably the best.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Peter,
Whoever told you the Magsafe Agent loads and SS are not effective out and out lied.
I know of an entire US Marshals service Tactical team that uses them exclusively and I saw first hand photos that also went to Joe Zambone of a very dead drug czar shot four times in the chest with custom MagSafe Swat loads out of a custom cut down
S&W .45 Colt by a DEA agent from deep concealment.
It was very effective and the first two rounds caused the drug man to drop his M16,
the second two opened his chest up like a butchers cleaver and he fell dead on the spot.
 

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Hello. In 9mm, I used to carry Cor*Bon 115 gr +P, but went to Triton's 125 gr +P HiVel JHP. It feeds more "slickly" than did the CorBon out of ALL my magazines and groups much better in some guns and at least as well in the others. Velocity remains a respectable 1250+ ft/sec compared to the 1380 ft/sec I got with the CorBon from my HPs. I also think this might offer a tad more penetration in the event an arm gets in the way. I cannot tell a difference in effect on critters.

In .45ACP, I go with Federal 230 gr HydraShok
as they hit the same point of aim as ball and seem to be liked by both M & S as well as Dr. Fackler's crew. Did fine on one coyote, but that's all I've shot with it. Did fine on javelina,too, and those are tough little dudes.

In 2" airweight .38 Spec, I like Federal standard pressure 125 gr Nyclads. Expand well, easy to control, and in my gun, hit very close to point of aim out to about 10 yards.

My PRIMARY defensive load is Remington 000 buck. I changed from #4 buck after seen a dude take three hits before slowly dropping.
He was shot in the right side from about 12 yards out.

Best.
 

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Uncle Sam gives me ball to go to war with, and Winchester Silvertip to use on the plane. Something about holes in the plane annoys people. Holes in me, annoys me.

I used to carry Gold Dot in my P-7, but now I carry Golden Sabre in my airweight and Silvertip in my STI 38 Super.

Gold Dot cause I like it, Golden Sabre cause its what the local PD carries (more defendable in court) and 38 Super Silvertip because CCI doesn’t offer Gold Dots in Super.

Tom
AF Shooting Team
 

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45 acp: Federal 230 Hydra Shock
40 S&W: Winchester 180 SXT
357: Winchester 180 partition gold
44 Special: Blazer 200 Gold dot

These are the four calibers that I carry/have carried. All chosen for accuracy, reliability and stopping power. The hydra shock is well proven and feeds great in all my 1911s, 180 sxt is the most accurate 180 grain load in my BHP and gives me just under 1000 FPS. I get 1100 with the 180 partition gold in my 4" 586. Recoil is not as bad as you would guess. Over penetration could be a problem though. Very accurate. Blazer gold dot in 44 special gives 825 out of a 3" 624. That's about the best 44 special load out there. In a wild bill's speed scabbard with Spegel boot grips, that is a fun and comfortable revolver to carry.

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fortuna favet fortibus

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: FBowers on 2001-04-13 02:28 ]</font>
 

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I started with Super vel, then Win. Silver tips and in order after that:
Early all lead Hydra Shok
CCI 200 Lawman
Glaser Safety slugs for a few months
200 Speer Corebon
230 Hydra Shok/Agent load Mag Safe
CCI 200 Lawman Gold Dot
230 Hydra Shok
230 Golden Saber

Curently
Winchester 230 SXT.
 

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Issue ammo for out duty weapons is Federal 230 gr. Hydra Shok.

Personal Carry:

Rem/Win 158 LHP in J-frames

Win +P+ 127 Ranger SXT or +P Gold Dot in G-26

Win 115 Silver Tip in Kahr MK-9

230 Golden Saber or Win SXT in 1911

Federal PP load 135 gr. H.S. in my C&S Adventurer

Remington 00 Buck 8 pellet Reduced Recoil in my 870's. Great patterns!!!!
 

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David,

Glad to hear some good reports on the frangibles. I liked them for what they would and would not go through. Did some interesting testing on the discontinued Agents, Super Swats and RBCD's. Meat,bone,and certain kinds of materials, that kind of thing.
 

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On 2001-04-12 23:54, David DiFabio wrote:
This is a question that I have asked more than once and I am very curious to hear your choices, likes, dislikes, experiences etcetera.
My main "dislike" is that manufacturers tend to change components at will, which can drastically effect the termial performance of the load. I recently tested in meat a popular 115 gr. +P+ load that some people have reported as quite effective but the lot that I have blew up (it was provided directly from the manufacture for LEO testing) and no part of it penetrated more than 5", about the same as a Glaser Safety Slug - totally inadequate for all but a face on hit to say the sternum. I try to keep up on the current ammo but it is almost impossible (there are at least 5 and I beleive there are as many as 7 versions of .45 230 Federal Hydra-Shok).

With that, duty loads (as opposed to hunting loads) subject to change:

.460 Rowland - Triton Hi-vel (I have not yet considered this a real "duty" cart.)
.45 Super - Triton Hi-Vel (now discontinued)
.45 ACP +P - Win. Ranger SXT (black Talon) 230, Triton +P Hi-Vel
.45 ACP - Fed. 230 H.S., Triton 230 or 200 Hi-vel, Wilson 200 XTP, Hornaday 230 or 200 XTP.
.44 Mag. - Win. 210 Silver-Tip, Triton 165 Mag-Lite,
.44 Spl - Speer Blazer (I know :sad:) 200 Gold Dot, (testing Triton)
.41 Mag - Win 175 Silver-Tip
10mm - Win. 175 Silver-Tip
.40 S&W - Triton 155 Hi-vel, Speer 165 G.D., Rem 165 G.S.
9X23 - Win. USA 125 jsp, Handload 147 [email protected] fps.
.357 Mag - Win. 145 Silver-Tip, Fed. 158 H.S., Fed. 130 P.D., Speer 125 G.D., Triton 125 G.D. (testing Fed. 140 Classic for adoption)
.38 spl - handload 145 Win S.T. loaded to 1100 fps from 2" rev.
9mm - Triton 135 +P Hi-vel, 135 Fed. H.S., Win +P+ 127 Ranger Talon, Federal 147 "Classic" jhp.
.380... just kidding :smile: (after 4 acquaintences used, or had one used on them, with disastours results - and no succeses - I gave mine away).

Food for thought,
Jim H.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jim Higginbotham on 2001-04-13 14:22 ]</font>
 

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1. GI Ball
2. 230gr XTP
3. Original "Evil" Black Talon
4. 230gr XTP
5. 230gr Hydra
Now thinking about trying out 230gr G.S. just for "S&G".

Dane & others: What do you guys think about G.S.? Thanks.

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dpcdivr on 2001-04-13 18:09 ]</font>
 

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Hello, Mr. Higgenbotham! I've chronographed the Triton 165 gr QuikShok out of my 3" Taurus M431 and get an average velocity of 1088 ft/sec compared to 829 ft/sec for the Speer 200 gr Gold Dot.

I'd be interested in the results of your testing. Both loads expanded or fragmented well in various media I used, but I've not yet connected on any critters.

Best.
 

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Stephen wrote;
<snip>I'd be interested in the results of your testing. Both loads expanded or fragmented well in various media I used, but I've not yet connected on any critters.
*****

I have not yet chronoed the .44 Mag-Lite (I think it is listed at 1200 or so) but it was surprizingly effective in my meat test. I hope to be able to get back to research for my Triton evaluation soon. This may just be a good load in both the .44 Mag and the Spl.

I will try to let folks know when I finally get this project done, but don't hold your breath, work is stacking up here :sad:

Onward!
Jim
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Again great info:
How many of us have used Glaser/MagSafe/BeeSafe/Geco rounds?
How about the B.A.T. rounds?
PMC Thunderzap? Cirilo Law Grabbers?
In short, what exotic ammo have you used?
 

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David wrote;
Again great info:
How many of us have used Glaser/MagSafe/BeeSafe/Geco rounds?
How about the B.A.T. rounds?
PMC Thunderzap? Cirilo Law Grabbers?
In short, what exotic ammo have you used?
_________________
Thanks,
David

True funny story: I got a handful of .45 Glaser Safety Slugs from Jack Cannon at the Second Chance Match (there was a sort of informal round table that met every year at Second Chance back then including Evan Marshal, Jack Robbins [USAF and father of the 9mm JTC in American Ammo], Alan Kulovitz [his photo of the guy shot about 32 times with a 9mm is famous], Jeff Chudwin, Mas Ayoob, and quite a few of us lesser knowns).

At any rate I took these S.S. loads (which were all handloaded by Jack back then and were so hot they were scary) back to test them. I managed to spot a ground hog and spend almost 15 minutes belly crawling up a little hill in order to get really close and when I topped the hill he was about 5 yards away with his back to me. I thought, boy am I going to get splattered but I shot him anyway. To my utter amazement he just folded (I hit the spine) and examination revealed that the Safety Slug did not open at all but just acted like ball. And there I was waiting to be showered with groud hog... well never mind :smile:

Anyway, I have never known anyone who was involved in a Glaser shooting. The only reports I have seen are 3rd or 4th hand and not one has worked (which does not mean that there are not dozens of cases which have worked I just have not encountered them).

I did use the 9mm BeeSafe round in my "artificial torso" test which I will be writing up if I ever get time. The deepest partical penetrated 5", which was the equal of Cor-Bon 115gr. +P+ JHP

I don't have anything on BAT rounds. Seems I recall someone reporting that they were very erratic.. even in their velocity. Tom G. may know. I think that the Memphis PD recovered thousands of BAT rounds loaded in the mags of confiscated guns they took from a motorcycle gang. They had a 61mm Mortar also, wich I wager would have been pretty effective :smile:


I didn't know PMC made the "ThunderZap", which was Richard Davis' brainchild. They did do a pure copper hollow bullet but forget the name. I have a few somewhere around here. Weiged 66 gr. in .38 spl with a plastic base wad. Thurderzap was all lexan, if I recall.

I have some pure copper bullet loads with a plastic plug in the nose a friend gave me but I forget the commercial name. I chronoed one in .45 ACP - it went 2100 fps!!! Since I only have two more I have not fired them into anything to see what they would do. Don't know what it weighs but it is not much.

Years ago I took a .45 185 gr. truncatd cone bullet mold and cast bullets out of straight babbit... they went something like 152 grs. and I loaded them to about 1500 fps but I did not shoot any critters with them. That might actually make an interesting load. A sort of pre-expanded but non disentegrating .357

Food for thought,
Jim Higginbotham








<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jim Higginbotham on 2001-04-14 15:54 ]</font>
 

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GLOCK 30: Federal Hydra-Shoks 230 gr. (i like the Magtech Gold 185 +P, but mi Glock seems not to like it)
Heckler P-9: Federal Hydra-Shocks 230 grs. or Hornady XTP 230grs +P
Heckler P-7 M13: Winchester 127 SXT +P+ or Remington 115 +P+
Glock 22 and 23: Remington Golden Saber 165 gr., Federal Hydra Shocks 155 gr. or Winchester Silvertip 155 grs.
These is mi choice when i carry anyone of this guns. I actually carry the Heckler P-7.
 

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Jim,

Several years ago, someone (who?) wrote an article for Combat Handguns about Glasers. They had actual shooting results, to include xrays of the wounds. All my stuff is packed up right now or I would try and find it. I used to carry Glasers in my j frame backup as I figured that if I needed it, it would be up close and personal. The Dept. outlawed them a few years ago.

Rob
 

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Several years ago, someone (who?) wrote an article for Combat Handguns about Glasers. They had actual shooting results, to include xrays of the wounds. All my stuff is packed up right now or I would try and find it. I used to carry Glasers in my j frame backup as I figured that if I needed it, it would be up close and personal. The Dept. outlawed them a few years ago.

Rob
_________________

I quit getting gun magazines, except for subscribing to one (whichever offers the cheapest subscription each year in order to just see what is going on news wise - and that is difficult to discern). Let me know if you find the article. If it was several years ago it could be Ed Sanow since he started out over there.

I hate to sound snobbish but it doesn't matter too much how many success stories Glasers produce since by design they won't penetrate more than 6" (and the reports I have seen show this is a maximum distance). Since, like Agent's Risner and Dove, your only good hit may have to get through an arm or other barrier I am not about to put anything in my pistol that will not penetrate a foot in the lab (experience tells me that such a load may not penetrate over 8 or 9" in real people or critters anyway).

I have inquired into several shootings in which the shooter placed his rounds well and did not stop his assailant. In most cases the cause proved to be lack of penetration rather than lack of "power" (whatever that is :smile: ).

Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jim Higginbotham on 2001-04-15 21:10 ]</font>
 
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