[Ray Z]

There has been a discussion on this and the other forum debating the merits of the FLRG, ambi safeties, adjustable sights, etc.

I'm ok with all of the above, except for the adjustable sights, but I'm ready for an education. So what do you think?

 

[Guest]

Ray,
IMO anything manufactured by man can be broken and will do so at the least opportune moment. For my hard use guns meaning guns that I will spend long trigger sessions with I do not want to have any sharp edges where skin meets metal and I truly dislike accessories like lasers, most adjustable sights, clamp or clip on devices, and staked on sights.

 

[buzz_knox]

Rust.

 

[emclain]

Call me old-fashioned, but I think ol' JMB got it purd-near right the first time round. Maybe some up-dated sights, a good finish, and a sweet trigger job. Otherwise, if it ain't broke, ya know the rest.

:wink:

Eric

 

[Ken Cook]

I agree with all of the above, keep the bells and whistles to a minimum.
IMNSHO, The farther you get from JMB's original design, the worse off you are.
Exceptions to this are a good set of sights, (preferably tritium inserts) an extended, perhaps even ambi thumb safety, and any checkering/cosmetics you may desire, as long as they do not interfere with the operation of the pistol.

 

[RAD]

Mainspring housing spikes
Extended FLGRs
Extended slide release
Oversized mag release
Wide extended thumb safety
Bucket-sized mag wells
Optical/red dot sights
Lasers
Flashlights
Skeletonized parts
Aluminum
Sharp edges
Adjustable sights
Things that break when your drop them
Things that you will be upset if they get dinged, dirty, or scratched
Things with more pieces than needed

 

[Shane1911]

On 2001-04-20 12:50, RAD wrote:
Mainspring housing spikes

What are those ? Checkering ? Jeez, I don't want none of them spikes on my guns either ! :wink:

 

[RAD]

Mainspring Housing spikes - as in a spike welded up to the bottom of the msh for when you whack somebody upside the head wit yo gat. :grin: Usually accompanied by the EXTRA full length guide rod, which sticks out the front of the gun, and can be sharpened to inflict damage without knocking the slide out of battery.

Geez, don't you guys read the gun rags? :razz:

 

[JimGA]

lol :grin:

 

[Shane1911]

Rad,

Jeez, I didn't even know that spike thing existed! I've never really been too worried about being impaled by a gun. I AM NOW!!! :wink:

I think maybe I'll start carrying one of those medieval maces for B/U from now on. Think Lou's got a holster for one ?

Damn, if the BG wants to HIT me with something, I gotta make sure I got something bigger to hit BACK with !!!! :smile:

 

[Mute]

That spike thing was in American Handgunners a few years back about what some author thought would be a "great" idea for a Spec Ops 1911. Boy what will they think of next, brass nuckle trigger guards?

 

[John Lawson]

McLain: YOU got it all wrong. Browning designed the pistol without a thumb or grip safety and with a very square to bore axis grip. The only "safety" was a half cock notch on the hammer. He sold the patent rights outright to Colt. The pistol was called the model of 1905 in .45 acp.
It was Colt engineers, at the insistance of Armyt Ordnance, who re-designed the grip frame at a more acute angle, resulting in the browning designed enclosed chamber becoming exposed at the bottom, where it remained until the modern ramped barrels came onto the scene. The Army insisted on a grip safety and a thumb safety.
So, why did you say that Browning "got it right the first time?" Why don't you read "A history of the Colt Revolver" by Haven and Belden copyright 1940, still in print. It also includes Colt autos. Look up the 1905. Would you fire an abortion like that? One heavy load and the wedge would shear and you'd have a slide embedded in your brain.
Next, the reluctance to put an adjustable sight on a carry pistol. Humpf! I have a Gold Cup with a Wilson adjustable rear, and it is a very sturdy setup. However, I will admit that I don't use my carry pistol for a sledge hammer or to open bottles, like Jeffy Cooper, or use it for a loaner like Mas Ayoob.
I have a 2-3/4 pound pull on mine. I have been to hundreds of court cases invovling shootings, so I do not care WHAT the prosecutor says about light trigger pulls. I can verify my competence with a light pull through the state's Criminal Justice Training Commission. In this state, law requires us to do some different things than some other states, and I can live with them.
Night sights have proved, in hundreds of night classes, to be absolutely worthless. Our state law requires that you positively identify a target before you shoot it. If it is too dark to do that, luminous sights will not illuminate the target. On the other hand, a white front blade or even a 3 dot white system will show the sights as long as you can identify the target. And besides, in over 50 years of giving police shooting classes, I have found that MOST shooters do better at night point shooting than trying to line up sights. (Obviously, they need to have instruction in point shooting.)
I do not think that any of the "gamesmanship" hang ons benefit a carry gun, but different folks have different ideas. If you can carry it day in and day out and hit the X every time you draw, your gun is right for you.
I have a real problem with people laying down principles that may work for them without considering what others are competent with... About 1/3 of my classes were devoted to "unlearning" what some genius had convinced my students was the only way to shoot. The difference between "playing games" and a lethal confrontation is considerable. As you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, you similarly don't bring a gamesmanship pistol to a street confrontation. Obviously, there are those who could use one and win a fire fight, but they would probably have won if they were armed with some other kind of pistol.

 

[Hilton Yam]

I think FLGR's are a waste of time, as are adjustable sights, extended mag releases, and comps/porting. Sharp edges have no place on a working gun. You should be able to run your hand over the entire pistol (except the front sight, perhaps) and not snag or cut yourself on anything.

Caveat to the extended mag release is that McCormick/Kimber/et al has a stock diameter button that's .060" longer. It's not really obtrusive, and can be helpful. I like the one on my Kimber, but my Colts and SA don't have one. No big deal.

Comps and porting increase blast. Guide rods add weight. I don't like SA mag wells much either, as they add weight and length. However, my Springfield has one, and it doesn't bother me that much and I leave it alone.

Bottom line is that most add-ons are just that -- add ons that do little to truly change the function of the pistol. You must be able to reliably operate your pistol to maximize its mechanical function. Anything beyond that is gravy.

 

[emclain]

OK, Mr. Lawson; didn't mean to step on the proverbial toes there, take a deep breath. I was simply stating, in typical Eric fashion, my love for a basic 1911A1, with little in the way of frillies, bells or whistles. You're right, JMB's original design was flawed, as are most things in their original format. I believe most here understood that I meant the format that has been in mass production as the basic "GI-type" model. I happen to agree with a number of the things you have said. I also disagree with some things, but I was simply trying to answer, with a bit of my style of humor, the original poster's question.

My apologies if there was a misunderstanding.

Eric

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: emclain on 2001-04-21 01:24 ]</font>

 

[John Lawson]

There's no misunderstanding. To be competent with a handgun, you should be able to pick up anything that comes to hand, shoot and win the confrontation.
As an instructor, you must be able to pick up any shooter's weapon and demonstrate that it will shoot the center out of the X. Now, this means guns that are basic and those with unecessary hang ons as well.
If you stroke your pistol more than once, you are playing with it. (Nasty boy!) Pistols often have sharp angles or points that can abrade skin. Since you may not have control over the pistol you have to use in a confrontation, I consider it wise to learn to shoot the gun without modifications. Obviously, you will be able to function better with one modified to your specifications, but it may be home on the back of a chair and you have to go with one you pick up from a downed suspect.
One other thing to consider: most competion shooters cannot draw fast from under a buttoned up raincoat or jacket. Each time you practice on the range, you should begin your draw from a buttoned up condition.
I have never heard of a shooter losing a finger or a hand because of sharp edges. Learn to ignore minor wounds and concentrate on the more important lethal confrontation at hand. Put your opponent away, then look for a Band Aid. Next time around, you will, no doubt, have rounded out a sharp edge and this minor wounding potential will be gone.
Those who don't feel that adjustable sights are necessary have never been on my range for sight-in. You either use an adjustable sight for variations in ammo, or you supply a single reliable load that impacts exactly where your sights indicate.
A good holster allows use of an adjustable rear sight. I advise, however, that you do not pound nails with your rear sight. Do you have actual case histories of adjustable sights that have failed during a confrontation? No case histories, no argument. As I said, I have only one in over fifty years, and that was on a K frame Smith.

 

[jwp]

colt gold cup sights with the roll pin need to have the roll pin replaced with a solid pin - i have had gold cup sights fly off the pistol during shooting when the roll pin failed - no problems since solid pin installed :grin:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jwp on 2001-04-21 17:19 ]</font>

 

[Ken Cook]

Hello all, I originally registered as "Armorer" the user name I use at my website, then decided to go with my real name, which I use most everywhere else.

On the subject of sights, tritium and otherwise.
I can definitely see a situation where illuminated sights can be of DEFINITE advantage, and can see almost no circumstance where they can be considered the CAUSE of a problem.

My standard loadout most days is a Kimber Ultra Elite with night sights and a Surefire 6Z light. Using the light to illuminate the target, and the nice little green dots on the sights, I can engage the targets out to 50 yards just as well as in broad daylight.

I fail to see how that can be a problem and while I'm sure that certain "Greats" of shooting history could point shoot to that degree of accuracy at that range, I doubt that 1 in 1,000,000 shooters could do so.

Anyone who has spent any time at all hunting is able to relate to the situation at either dawn or dusk, when it is possible with available light to clearly identify his target, and count the points on that buck, but has not light enough to clearly see his sights. Are not the same lighting conditions possible in a defensive situation?

As to the argument concerning fixed/adjustable sights, my preference is fixed sights on a defensive pistol, adj. on a target gun.
Why?
For defense, I carry one load and ONLY one load. I do not change it, it never varies.
For that reason, adjustable sights are "teats on a boar." Totally superfluous.
On a target gun, I may experiment from time to time, looking for that "ultimate" load that will let me poke ridiculously tight groups in a piece of paper a ridiculous distance away. My life does not depend on it, I'm willing to play with it a little bit.

Have I seen adj. sights break DURING a confrontation? Nope! However I've seen them break in practice or training, and to assume that they will break then, but not at the crucial moment is folly.
The Elliason sights mentioned by a previous poster were notorious for this, due to the fragile roll pin, and there is also good reason why S&W sights are no longer installed on 1911s. They're just a little too delicate. Not especially delicate, just fragile enough that users are not comfortable trusting them. (Although I will admit, I love the looks of them on a vintage Swenson or other of the same period.)

Far more likely than a breakage, is that the sight be knocked or inadvertantly knocked out of adjustment. True, the same can happen to fixed sights, but the odds are significantly less.


The flawless, perfect, guaranteed never to malfunction pistol has not yet been built and probably never will, so lacking that, we try to stack the odds as much in our own favor as much as possible.
Isn't that what it's all about?

 

[Matt VDW]

Do you have actual case histories of adjustable sights that have failed during a confrontation? No case histories, no argument.

Hmmm... I have no case histories of a gun failing because it was lubed with Elmer's Glue. Therefore, it must not be a bad idea. :wink:

Seriously, though, there's more to consider than outright "failure" when it comes to adjustable sights. For instance, what happens when your adjustable sights aren't adjusted properly? You could memorize your sight settings and check them every time you put on your pistol, just in case you or someone else fiddled with the sights, but using fixed sights would eliminate that concern.

And if circumstances force you to use something other than your usual carry or practice ammo, mightn't they also keep you from having an opportunity to re-zero your sights?

 

[RMLamey]

The person on the receiving end isnt going to know if you had an extended slide stop, adjustable sights, full length guide rod etc......

All that is neccassary is that it functions reliably, and you are capable of using it effectively.

 

[White Bears]

White Bears say, " If it shoots straight, then it is worth the time. If it has bells and whistles on it and you want to carry it. Then do so. Can it shoot a bird out of the sky? Can you hit the bottom of a tin can? Can you shoot to kill in the time of need? If that is a YES then feel lucky and have fun. No, then it is not right for you fix it. I feel that I will not have bells, fringe, dingle balls, whistles, fuzzy dice or even a green tree air freshener on my gun. That is what White Bears said.” “Can we not all get along?” “ Shoot what you bring.” :smile: