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I suspect that there's a fine line in defining 'Reliability' problems.

I've had new 1911's that REALLY required a break in period, and some that didn't. I've also had 1911's that were junk out of the box, but certainly correctable.

So, lets consider a few things... What many feel is needed for 'Reliabilty Work' is getting the pistol to run consisently with all sorts of ammo, whether it's Ball, HP's, or SWC's. Could be a fair request.

It's possible the manufacturers only design, or build around Ball, and the pistol really doesn't like SWC's, but then, we consider that not all 'factory' ammo is the same...

Some stuff varies slightly in pressures, length, others vary in nose profiles, and of course, styles. in a perfect world, it all interchangeable, but the reality is that it's not.

Well... Okay... Maybe there's a few guns that will run ALL the different ammo without even choking once, and maybe, some like a particular style, or brand.

Lets consider a car... I've had fatory hotrods that wouldn't run on regular, only premium, and in some cases, only premium from Union 76, or Chevron, but not Shell, or Arco. To their credit, the manufacturer DID recommend Premium Fuel only.

Okay, so I had a Thunderbird Super Coupe that you could hammer on all day long on long mountain twisties, but I burned the brakes down in 2-3 hot-laps at Laguna Seca running on some old scrubbed GS-CS's from the Mustang Road Race car. In other words, I exceeded the manufacturers expectations.

Back to guns... So Colt designs a gun... Maybe, if you only use Ball, it works fine, but when you run JHP's, it's not... Kinda like Regular and Premium gas.. It'll run, but not well... I don't know... Just a thought...

So, now, I decide to 'Hot-Rod' my Colt, and exceed the design limits doing whatever, and it chokes... Kinda like the Brakes on the SC... not really Fords fault... It was on me.

I know there are guns that don't work the way the should out of the box, and most companies work hard to correct that problem. Kimber raised the bar on the sloppy work we saw in the early 90's from Colt, and Colt has improved considerably. The consumer ultimately speaks with their wallets, so when Colt, or someone else starts selling poor products, and they don't sell, they try to figure out why, and if they want to stay in business, they fix it... There may be more room to improve, but they're going in the right direction.

If everyone will stop buying Springfields, and complain about the knife sharp edges, maybe Springfield will cure that problem.

It might not be a fair knock to say that every 1911 out of the box needs work though... I've had several that didn't, both old, and new. My Kahr broke on the 4th round out of the box, but they are known for being very reliable...

Mass production probably attributes to a few 'lemons' making past QC, but in general, the breed is better, and more cost efficient than back when an army of craftsmen hand crafted every piece.
 

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On 2001-06-14 15:37, Blackjack wrote:
Getting a Dog in a used Gun is alot more easy, I know because I have over 33 years experience in that :grin: In fact to paraphrase the old joke; " The buying of used guns is a triumph of hope over experience."

I almost never buy used Guns anymore, ( unless they are something very special ) because included in the purchase price is a round trip all expense paid vacation to Burn`s or Heinie.

That`s just the way it is.

Go blow holes in some paper , you`ll feel better...:smile:
Yup... Took a while for me to really convince myself but it just seemed that what I thought was a bargain (used) gun, was really someone elses nightmare they dumped because it wouldn't run...

Unless it's special, or has a known history (like a friends gun or something) I try to avoid the used route, it almost always means "Add $500 to the purchase price" :wink:
 

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On 2001-06-14 16:40, JerryM wrote:
I don't accept that we should have to buy a couple hundred bucks worth of ammo to see if one is reliable and break it in. However, I know it is that way and I don't expect to get a new 1911 that is reliable OTB.
I am not opposed to breaking in a new 'mechanical device' if the manufacturer recommends doing so, even if they don't. I break in a new car/engine when I buy one, but when I hand craft a race motor, there's no such luxury, we might get a couple hours tops on the Dyno, but then, the motors are designed, and engineered for maybe 20 hours tops, some even less, so they don't really get broke in, but the 'blueprinting' is such, kinda like a house custom, that's it's not required.

I don't question anyones integrity, but I wonder how many of those who have OTB factory guns that have fired several thousand rounds without a malfunction, have made excuses for the gun. A bad magazine, ammunition it doesn't like, limpwristing, etc.
That's cool... FWIW, when I say no, it's because I meant no... None... If I had had a couple 'minor' irratants, then I'd say so... Kinda like the Kahr... While it has been fine since it was repaired, it did break out of the box, and they are supposed to be a bit better in terms of reliability, kinda like a Glock.

Of course, I suppose I can caveat one thing... I use Wilson mags... I don't use the factory mags, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't work with the factory mags, simply I prefer to use a mag that I feel is superior to most any other I have used.

As for Ammo, as long as I use my preferred Federal AE, and it works, I am happy... Once I have given a proper cleaning/lubing, break-in period, and cleaning/lubing again, then I 'certify' it for use for carry by running a few hundred rounds of Hydraskoks through it... If all is well, I am happy... If it chokes, it chokes... I have had some choke, but I have had many not choke... No biggie... I too expect the worst, and get very pleased when I 'prove' myself wrong.

I expect different things for different things... I expect that I can jump in my Expedition, turn the key, and drive off, and drive for years without a problem... I KNOW I need to take a different approach with the Mustang... Once it's ready to go, it'll really go, but it's more like sex... It gets started slowly, and needs to run a few minutes, and let the Temps, and Pressures come up... Then, you can flog the beast, but like many women, she can be finicky :wink:

Oh... as for Glocks... My daughters Glock 27 was choking when she first got it... She lives in AZ, and when she first got it, and she told me she was having a 'reliability problem'. I told her she was limpwristing it, but she assured me she wasn't... I told her to go to the range with a few friends, get someone at the range that was familiar with it to see if it was the gun or her... This went on for months, and she was always saying it was the gun.

Finally, when I went out to AZ last summer, and we went shooting, she finally learned that Daddy was right... She had a few FTF's in her first 19 rounds (2 mags), and complained about it, I took it and ran 81 rounds without a problem. She WAS limpwristing, but was it really her limpwristing, or was it the gun :grin:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jaydee on 2001-06-14 17:11 ]</font>
 

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100.... Wow! I don't even come close :wink:

I have owned more than 20 examples of the 1911 that I can recall, and I am certain there's a few I can't, since the 70's. Most have been Commander sized, with 4 or 5 Officers sized examples, and the rest Governments.

Most of them I kept for a short period, and sold for something else, but many were kept. Some where 'Special' editions, or customs, and some were plain old 'stockers'. Most were in 45, a few 38's, and 2 9's.

I'd say most were Pre 70's & S70's Colts, and at least 6 were S80's, the rest varied from SA to Norinco. I got away from them after I got out of the military, and picked it back up a few years back, but for the most part, I have owned at least one since the mid 70's, and currently, own 3, and another is waiting to be built from a bare frame.

Anyway... My person sample bases is high enough for me to make an informed decision, and while there have been some 'lemons', many had been very solid.

As for Car's... My wife's SC was purchased new, and was a 90 (second year of production) and still a bit buggie with lots of 'new' technology for the day. It spent more time at the dealer in the first year than we can remember, mostly computer related stuff, but the AC compressor was a source of major grief. Since Ford liked Serpentine belts to run ALL the accessories, when the Compressor locked up, it pretty much killed the motor, as it smoked the belt, but I digress... It was (is??? Still have it) a nice car, although it's remained parked for most of the last 3 or 4 years. She doesn't drive much now, being disabled, and it's a stick, so she can't even really drive it. I have preferred to commute with the SUV, since an Automatic is easier to 'multitask' & get my calls started when I have 'windshield time', but have been lucky to not have to deal with the commute now for over a year.

Anyway... This has been a good thread... It really brings back some fond memories, and in some ways, makes me sick, thinking about some of the pistols I have owned, and sold... I wish I still had them, and have vowed that I won't sell anything out of the collection any more, just add to it, and let it grow... I can't count the number of 1911's I bought for under $200, and most would sell for well over $600 today... including a US&S, and a Remington Rand, and a Pre-War Commercial that I picked up for $75 that would probably be worth 2 grand. Oh well...

Enjoy!
 

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On 2001-06-15 10:42, Chad Ward wrote:

I think the Harley analogy holds up pretty well. Even if you've got a good one, you can't help but dude it up :smile:.

Chad
True... Very True... The Jag analogy is also right on the mark, and that without 'duding' it up :wink: I worked for a family friend when I first got out of the military in his Jag shop he's had since he retired from the Navy in the 60's, and most of his clientle has been with him from the early days.

Gasoline & Gunpowder has many close ties... Much of what we do is very similar in both hobbies.
 
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