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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What do I mean, you ask?

What I mean is that Colt, Springfield Armory and Kimber are utterly pitiful by the standards of any respectable industry. They sell a product that is supposed to save our lives from violent assault, and yet they let hundreds if not thousands of defective handguns go out the door every year.

Consider this: does any pistolsmith NOT offer a 1911 "reliablity package"? No, because there are huge numbers of 1911 pistols that need them. A complete one, like the one Dane Burns is doing to my Delta Elite, runs $199. Think about that: I am buying a life-or-death product and need to spend 1/3 again the cost of it just to make it WORK RIGHT!!! My Kimber was no better, and my old Para-Ordinance would jam horribly on 230gr ball!

How many people do you know that buy "reliability packages" for their new car? Their SCUBA gear? Do hospitals have to buy "reliability packages" from Stryker, Inc., for their medical equipment? Hell, no. First of all, Stryker actually has pride in their product, and second of all they'd be sued off the face of the earth or imprisoned the first time a Stryker Cast Saw severed someone's limb...

Failures and breakages are inevitable, even for a company whose products have a bit error rate of 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000+ (like the one I work for). But the American handgun industry seems practically 19th century in its quality control. That's a sweeping indictment, but I'm sick of getting 1911 pistols that do not FUNCTION, and this has been going on for DECADES. I'm at the point now where I'd almost break down and vote for a handgun "lemon law" to get their sorry butts in line.

In conclusion: what gives? :mad:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Wow, that's alot of hostility for a Thursday night! I intended to stirr things up, wiseass that I am, but wow! :eek:

If I remember correctly, the gun that Dane has is the same Delta Elite that you gave a very good review...
If I was only talking about one gun that wasn't completely reliable, you might have a point. But I wasn't, so you don't. Just goes to show that if you are willing to take something far enough out of context you can prove anything. :roll:

I have owned 3 1911 pistols, and none of them were completely reliable out of the box. Notice that I'm not talking about *ONE* that may just be the fault of age/bad gunsmithing/fluke breakages/whatever, but the total of three (aka "3", aka "III," three being the number of the counting... :grin:) that didn't work. PLUS however many other broken ones that MUST exist for reliability jobs to be a booming business... AND to account for all the posts on various forums complaining about unreliable 1911s.

Anything that can make money will become a business eventually. Gunsmiths make money because (a) people would like stuff customized and imroved even if it did work, and (b) alot of 1911 pistols don't work even when they are NEW. I fall into both categories, incidentally... otherwise I'd stick to my Glock. Again, I point out that virtually every other product does NOT have people that make money by charging 25-30% of the original cost of a product to make it *WORK*.

And in case this wasn't clear the first time, this isn't a slug on pistolsmiths... or the 1911 design. The fact that someone can LEGITIMATELY charge $200 to make sure my pistol works right goes to show you not that the pistolsmiths are robbing people blind, but that these things often have so many things out of spec. And the fact that I sent off my 1911 for expensive work is due to the fact that I admire the design (if not the execution).

And finally, if you went to my website and READ the gun reviews I posted there, you would see that while I point out the *many* strong points of the Kimber and Delta Elite, I also point out how reliable they were, or weren't, and what I suspected the causes were... including the various Delta Elite follies. Yes, that was a shameless plug for my site. :grin:

Cheers,

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P.S. From now on I think I'll stick to non-controversial topic titles like "Only Mean Dumb People Vote Republican!!!" :wink:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-06-14 19:47 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
On 2001-07-03 11:20, Boshbasa wrote:
I say that I would rather trust American Made firearms because they hold to tighter regulations.
Do you have any evidence of this? I ask because most industries in Europe are more regulated and have more government involvement than in the USA. We are talking about countries where out-and-out Socialists are commonly the leading party in government... as if Democrats weren't bad enough. And, of course, the whole idea that government regulation improves quality was kind of disproven by the USSR. :grin:

Taurus, Glock, and a variety of other worldly made firearms do not have to manufacture with USA guidelines. This includes workplace safety as well as material specifications and such.
One word: "Hi-Point." Ample evidence of the quality inherent in "manufacture with USA guidelines." :roll:



And if THAT isn't "other worldly" (a made-in-the-USA Hi-Point 380COMP-L) I don't know what is... $190 of U.S.A.-regulated pig iron and bailing wire for your personal defense... :grin: :grin: :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I thought you all would like the Hi-Point 380COMP-L. The compensator, laser and extended magazine are FACTORY OPTIONS!!! Of course, I have never heard of anyone putting a compensator on a .380 ACP pistol, but to each their own. Sadly, I do not own one, I just mooched the picture off their web site.

http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com/semiauto.html

"Quality Control is second to none in the firearms industry"

"All Hi-Point Firearms carry a Lifetime, No-Questions Asked Warranty."

Take THAT, Kimber!!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-07-04 11:21 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
On 2001-07-07 09:42, White Bears wrote:
AAAAAAA---Shut Up...
Here are some thoughts:

1. If you learn the punctuation rules of American Standard English you won't look *completely* illiterate.

2. Shooting your mouth off and telling me to shut up looks kind of silly when it is obvious that you missed my WHOLE point. Here is the Cliff Notes version for those that can't understand illustration by example and other advanced linguistic concepts:

WHY IS IT THAT FIREARMS MANUFACTURERS DON'T MEET THE SAME QUALITY CONTROL STANDARDS AS OTHER COMPANIES THAT MAKE LIFE-OR-DEATH PRODUCTS?

3. If I didn't like 1911 pistols I wouldn't own and shoot one. They are great... when they work... which isn't as often as they should. By your logic nobody should have bitched about Ford Pintos blowing up because, hey, If you don't like it don't buy it and so what if shoddy workmanship gets people roasted. :roll:

4. It is considred common courtesy to wait until your post count reaches double digits to start insulting people. :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
On 2001-07-07 20:38, David DiFabio wrote:
A little ruling some time back when you were in high school CB, the Moss-Ferguson warranty act provides real and substantial manufacturer protections to the maker.
I don't suppose you mean the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, do you? Because if you do, I wasn't in high school, smarty pants -- I was about two years old! :grin: :grin:

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/bus ... ty/toc.htm

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P.S. What exactly ARE "manufacturer protections to the maker" anyway? And how does that help us kick their ass? :???:

P.P.S. How do you know my age, anyway? Did you visit my website? If so, bust my chops all you want... anything for more hits on the counter! :smile:

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-07-08 11:35 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Hey, I won't stand for anyone making fun of Dane's age... at least not until I get my Delta Elite back from him! :grin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
CoyoteACP,

Uh, has it dawned on you yet that the passage you quoted (and apparently got all lathered up about) was A JOKE?!? The guy it was addressed to realized it was HUMOR, so what is your problem... :roll:

I'm not really sure what got you all riled, the only reason I made fun of that one guy's writing was because he told me to shut up instead of making a point that might make some kind of sense. Heck, I'd forgotten all about that guy telling me to shut up untill just now, now I'm in a pissed off mood and my day is shot. Thanks alot buddy... I HATE EVERYONE SCREW YOU ALL GRRRRRAAARRRGH!!!! :grin: :grin:


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P.S. My liberal use of "smiley" icons is a hint that I'm usually not 100% serious.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-07-25 14:29 ]</font>
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Good for you. The rest of us must be imagining all the 1911 malfuctions we've seen on the pistol range with perfectly cleaned & lubed weapons firing new factory ammo... :roll:

Nobody has been able to answer this question: are there any products other than 1911 pistols that have a cottage industry of "reliability jobs" that cost 20% of the base price of the gun just to make them work right?

As for the money issue, do you expect to have a, say, 10% chance of a Stryker saw being used to remove a cast SEVERING AN ENTIRE LIMB because, hey, it costs less than a car?
 

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Discussion Starter · #62 ·
On 2001-07-31 14:34, JiminCA wrote:
The only consumer product that I can think of that requires a lot of attention/customization to work the way I want it to is the tool I'm using right now.

The PC.

No other household appliance is so unreliable, and so hard to use for so many people.

You buy one and it is often barely able to boot up. You need apps. Most people have a hard time installing apps and configuring the machine to run right. You want a network? Hire a $125/hr guy and he might know how to set it up.

And every now and then the thing just quits working for reasons unknown.

Don't get me wrong. I've been using all sorts of computers for 20 years and know a lot about them. And I can get them to do what I want them to do. But ask yourself - what percentage of my time at a computer is spent fighting with the machine and what percentage is spent actually doing something useful? When I buy a new machine I expect to spend several days of my time getting things set up the way that I want them. Not all at once, but spread out over a couple of weeks.

PC's overall reliability and out of the box usefulness is even lower than what we've been discussing here. And you can hire lots of guys who do the equivalent of a "reliability job".

Jim

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: JiminCA on 2001-07-31 14:36 ]</font>
Hey, you must be some kind of wierdo that has his PC customized for no reason. You have fallen for the hype that every PC needs a software engineer to "massage" it to get it to work. My PCs have always worked 100% of the time and never crashed, and since my personal experince includes all of the knowledge in the universe you must be retarded or just plain stupid to bring up a point that disagrees with mine. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Of course I'm joking. That's actually kind of an interesting point, since a PC does cost about the same as a 1911-type pistol nowadays (less than $1K for Gigahertz systems). The only back-door I can use to get past your example is that a PC is several orders of magnitude more complex than a 1911 pistol... hard drives running at thousands of RPM, millions of transistors on the CPU, millions of lines of code, hundreds of millions or even billions of cycles per second, billions of bits of total data shuffled around.

Oh yeah, and handgun performance doesn't double every 18 months either like CPU performance does. I want my phaser and I want it NOW!!! :razz:

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: CastleBravo on 2001-07-31 20:22 ]</font>
 
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