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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does this round offer any advantages over the 9mm, .40S&W, or .45acp?
 

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You can find out a great deal by doing a search of this site (see "search" at upper right.) Search under .357 Sig and see the answers to similar questions already asked and answered.

Also go to http://glocktalk.com/ and do the same. You'll come back to the discussion with some specific questions to ask that will move the discussion forward. Good hunting.
 
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Clay,
I sent you a bfief reply in your email to me.
I hope it helps to answer your question as I cannot type anymore today (hand trouble).
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I've searched.
Most of what I've found is based upon principle's I don't agree with.

David, thanks for answering my questions.

I agree that the 357 SIG may be "inherently" more reliable due to the bottlenecked shape.
It also offers more velocity, which doesn't impress me.

The .40S&W is more widely available, and in more offerings than the .357 SIG, currently at least.

The penetration and expansion data that I have seen for the .40 have been very consistant, and impressive. Very close to the .45 acp, and in many cases identical.

I've been shooting Glock 23's for the last six years, and I'm very pleased. It took me awhile to warm up to them, but at the time, they offered near .45 potential in a compact and reliable package.

I can't, for the life of me, see a use for the .357 SIG, or other cartridges that sacrifice bullet weight/cross section for the "high velocity alter".

Is the .357 SIG really easier to shoot than the .40S&W? More accurate?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I did some searches on a few other forums, and half of the reports say the .357 SIG has less recoil/muzzle flip than a .40S&W, while the other half state just the opposite.

I'd take this to mean that they are extremely similar, and it would probably of no use to debate the issue.

As far as accuracy, my .40's are more accurate than me, so i'm sure the 357 SIG would be the same, as far as real world use would go.
 

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On 2001-08-12 17:21, Clay wrote:
Does this round offer any advantages over the 9mm, .40S&W, or .45acp?
You will probably get several views on this. People seemed to get attached to a certain caliber.

I am sure that it will work out in most cases, but I don't see any big difference in this cartridge and a +P+ 9mm (about 100 fps) and sometimes velocity is a detriment not a boon (depends on bullet design and the way it is loaded).

I am a bit underwhelmed with the "inherently reliable" argument...my .45 1911s don't malfunction once in 10,000 rounds (I have already seen worse than that from the few .357 Sigs we have had in classes - wich was probably more gun/shooter related than ammo) so, while I understand the theory, the point is sort of academic.

Some of the ammo has a really bright muzzle signature... much more so than the 9X23 which is a hotter round and you don't get any extra ammo in your gun over a .40 S&W.

Had a deputy with a Glock in .357 Sig... he finally gave up and converted it to a 40 S&W (ammo prices and less recoil). Then he traded it off and got a 1911 and increased his training scores by 50% (it wasn't the gun, BTW, it was the shooter).

Still, with tough bullets, and especially with the newer 140 and 147 gr. loads it should be as good (or as bad) as the other medium bores.

Cordially,
Jim Higginbotham
 

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Hello! This is my first post on this forum. Some of you may recognize me from a couple other gun-forums.

I used to have quite a dislike for the very idea of the .357sig, but now I think it would have a "place" IF a 147gr-150gr bullet could be launched to 1200fps from a @3.75inch barrel.
 

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Yeah! I think the ammo companies make more profit on the 357 than the 9/40/45. :wink:

If you believe energy matters, it will generate more at a lower recoil level.

Performnce profiles in gelatin vary with the load, even at the same weight.

The 125 Fed, Speer, Hornady, and old Rem do about 14-16/.60 in bare gel, about 16-20/.55 after cloth/denim.

The 125 Winchester Ranger T, PMC SF, and newer Rem do about 11-12/.70 in bare gel, 12-13/.60-.65 after cloth.

The 147 XTP and 150 Fed about 15-16/.60 bare gel, same as their 125s.

The 125 bonded Rem GS about 13/.61 after denim.

I've shot a lot of it in SIGs and Glocks. Louder, more flash, prefer the 40.

Trade off about 10-25% more energy for 10-25% less expansion. Tactical barrier penetration is good, but no better than the better 40/45s from tests I've seen; some swear it's better.

Tighter groups at longer ranges firing slower; up close and fast no difference I can see/measure. Had more reliability probs w Rem UMC in 357 than any 40 load so far. Must been a bad run?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MichaelOrick on 2001-08-14 14:20 ]</font>
 
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I recently bought a .357 Sig barrel for my
Glock 23. It seems a little more accurate.
Recoil is about the same. Actually, I've never found recoil to be a problem in any Glock. I'd certainly prefer the 125 Cor-bon
at 1400+ to any 9mm. The only drawback I've
found is that there's no reduced power ammo
available for practice as in the .40. I guess
I could buy reloading dies from Dillon, but
they're over 100 bucks. Does anyone reload
this caliber and does the bottleneck case
present a problem.
 

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Shotist;

The bottleneck cases do indeed present problems in reloading but they are not unsurmountable.

The first hurdle is that you have to find a Full Length carbide sizer unless you want to lube each case... that is why Dillon dies are so expensive.

With a short neck and shoulder it is difficult to bell then recrimp the neck.

Still, if I had one, I would probably reload for it (I am a hopeless tinkerer). Back in the 60's there was the .38/45, which some thought of as a way to make a 1911 shoot wadcutter target ammo but other thought of as a Super Super .38... it didn't exactly take over.

Stout heart and good cheer!
Jim
 
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I'm not sure why this is such a difficult issue and I do understand the concept of caliber devotion but the comparisons of the .357 and the .40 remind me of the old .44magnum versus .30x.30 arguments.

Each caliber will work on deer but what are your criterion for choosing the overall package?

The .357Sig vs. 9mm +P+, vs. 40 S&W (any weights) is a simillar question with such an obvious answer.

The honest truth all other debates aside is that all of these calibers when properly loaded with quality expanding JHP bullets that will not fail/fragment and will penetrate/function properly produce wounding profiles that are so similar you will need a microsope to discern the differences.

The 9mm +P+ has reached it's development ceiling, engineers cannot push this rounds effectiveness any farther.

The .40S&W is a good, consistent design that is at it's most effective when loaded at 950fps and above with a quality 180gr bullet.
Beyond that, all of the "lighter" "faster" talk is complete and utter marketing BS aimed at selling more handguns and ammo to the consumers both the civillian LE and Citizen markets. (If you believe that the 135gr bullets are more effective please send in an advance deposit to purchase my new line of "combat" flashlights soon to be coming out)

The .357 is a melding together of these two rounds with a very specific design criterion and no it was not to model the .357 magnum as anyone who has actually tested this round can tell you that it does not replicate or duplicate the wound channel of the .357 Magnum.
This round has a tremendous potential to do some very good things for the handgun market and do some very bad things to the criminal population as it is adopted by more and more LEO agencies.

It is not a "new" .38Super, not is it a 9x23 competitor, nor is it the next 10mm.

It is however very, very consistent.
It is equally accurate in any barrel length.
It is more reliable by design than an equal length straight walled cartridge. (if your gun is currently 100% reliable keep it and be happy).
It does generate increased efficencies ballistically.
It does penetrate all current test media and pentration obstacles with exacting regularity and remarkable consistency.
Shooting sheetmetal, wood, auto glass, masonary, and sheetrock under the USSS testing produced results that were so consistent they could have been believed to be forged.

Lastly, the .357 is not a wonder bullet, it will not put the 9mm +P+,.38Super, .357Magnum, 9x23, .40S&W, .45acp, or 10mm to shame.
What it will do is produce results that are so accurate and consistent that it will grow on you and that is impressive when you consider that most of the current calibers vary widely from test to test .

One final point, the RA357SigT loading from Winchester's Ranger line using the fourth generation Talon bullet when fired from the Sig P229 produces 14.7" of penetration and .64" of expansion when fired into 10% calibrated gelatin time after time after time.
 

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One more aside, The other day at the indoor range I shoot at I had a 38sup (with a handload that had to be close to grenade level) on one side of me and a off duty state trooper with a 357sig on the other. Between the two they were loud enough to knock the balls off of a brass billygoat. I double plugged and the concussion was still distracting, I left with a good start on one heck of a flinch. It would be advisable to carry earplugs in your pocket incase you had to protect yourself with one of those rockets,
40s might not be so bad
Gerald
 

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In my experience, the .357 Sig is a bit fragile. While shooting my Glock 31, my brother-in-law had a failure to feed. When we extracted the round, we found that the neck of the case had been peeled back by the chamber. Almost the entire side of the bullet had been exposed. I've never seen that happen with another caliber Glock, or a 1911, or a Sig.

The ammo was Georgia Arms, by the way.
 

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How many generations of bullet have been loaded in the Ranger 357SIG?

Stuff I saw penetrated 2-4 inches less than Speer, Federal, Remington and Hornady ammo tested at the same time under the same conditions, expanded more. Looks like they are more similar now to the other loads? They've reduced exp, increased pen from what I saw?

Are we just seeing the differences from one tester to another? In 1994 the FBI got avgs of 10.7/.84 in bare gel w the 155/40 Gold Dot, the CPRC 13.2/.72

Any gel info on the bullet loaded in the USA line?

What do you mean by consistent? The profiles of the loads I saw varied widely. From shallow/big to deeper/smaller, just like other calibers. Some fragmented, some did not. The CB and Triton were very different from Fed, Speer, and Rem with Win in the middle.

Or do you mean the Fed 125 JHP 357SIG is more consistent than the Fed 165 HS 40S&W?

If they both have a "sucess rate" of 92.5% and avg pen/exp of 18/.50 in a test series, why beat myself up (relatively speaking) with the 357? And why wouldn't a 180/40 HS that does 17/.55/95% be "better"? A 230/45 HS that does 18/.62/95% better yet?

I do think it's another good way to skin the cat, but not necessarily a better or best way.

State troopers here switched from S&W 45s to Glock 357s. Time will tell? Heard nothing but good about it so far.

Lets' look at PMC ammo, bare gel.

125SF/357 11/.70 500 ft lbs
155SF/40 11/.75 440 ft lbs
180SF/40 12/.75 380 ft lbs
165JHP/40 13/.68 360 ft lbs

Fed ammo.

125JHP/357 14/.60
180HS/40 14/.70

Speer ammo after cloth.

125GD/357 19/.54
180GD/40 17.5/.60

Something for everybody? I lean twd the 40.
_________________
Mike >>>>----->



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MichaelOrick on 2001-08-16 16:09 ]</font>
 
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Thanks for the input. I tend more toward the
Evan Marshal school of thought in regards to
penetration. As a civilian, I'm not likely
to shoot anyone unless they're right in front
of me and it's highly unlikely that I'll be
shooting through anything such as a door or any type of material such as glass or metal.
I know many of you disagree. I carry Speer 185 golddots in my Lwt Commander. Any opinions on this load?
 
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The current round is using the 4th generation of the 125gr WRT bullet.

As to muzzle blast on the range I completely agree with you, I hate shooting next to the hand cannons.
On my last trip several weeks back I was shooting on the combo rifle/pistol/shotgun range and hated the guy next to me shooting 3" magnums.

In a defensive situation you will never know the difference as most people will not hear the round go off, some do but report that it was heavily muffled.
In my own case I suffered hearing damage to my right ear and some lose of tone in my left ear from firing inside an automobile with only one open window while protecting a client in 1992. 16rds of 9mm fired into the assaulting parties truck as our escort vehicle rammed them, my ears had a high pitched ringing for over two years. I do not believe that it got better I think I just lost enough hearing that I cannot tell anymore.

As to the PMC comparisons you can see that their is very little difference between the calibers and "performance" once we establish penetration and expansion as minimums the rest of the features/specs are moot points.

Consisitency in the loadings.

I have only witnessed one case shearing like that and it was with a .300 Win Magnum in an AWC German issue counter sniper rifle.
It turned out that the brass was not up to spec and would possibly have failed under pressure when firing, it was all returned to Norma.

Pick what you like, if what you have is currently "better" than the .357 stay with it, why would you switch?

If you currently have good success with the .40 or .45 don't switch save the money and practice more.

Also, FWIW the .357 is not my first choice in a fighting handgun.

What is the best handgun round? I would argue that it has yet to be developed, what works almost all of the common service cartridges work to varying degrees, they each have advanatages and disadvantages, this is one of the reasons that my choice in equipment varies greatly depending on my environment.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-08-16 18:47 ]</font>
 

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What is the best handgun round? I would argue that it has yet to be developed, what works almost all of the common service cartridges work to varying degrees, they each have advanatages and disadvantages, this is one of the reasons that my choice in equipment varies greatly depending on my environment.

David DiFabio on 2001-08-16 18:47 ]</font>
Excellent answer as usual David.
 
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