[DesertRat]

I placed an order with Botach for the 127gr. +p 9mm they advertise on their website. I got this email back from them today:

"Hello Sir,

Reference to order you recently placed, we no longer have the exact item which has the black tip. Instead, what we do have are just the standard one which are basically the same except that it's not of black colored tip.

Please call us for your comments.

Thanks,

Botach Tactical Customer Service"

I replied with a request to email me back with the actual Winchester part number from the boxes they propose to substitute, along with a confirmation that it's also 127gr. +P.

But, does anyone in the forum know if Winchester has the same LEO +P loading with a non-Lubalox bullet? Is this the Ranger Talon that has replaced the Ranger SXT? If so, are the bullet's expansion characteristics PRACTICALLY the same as the Lubalox variation?

 

[Pistolero]

The current Winchster "RA9SXTP" is one & the same as "Black Talon" sans nickle case & black Lubaox bullet coating.
SEE:
http://www.winchester.com/law/catalog/c ... N0PW5vbmU=

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs2.htm#Black-Talon

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm

 

[DesertRat]

Thanks, Pistolero.

I talked to the folks at Botach today and they confirmed the 127gr. +p marking on the box. The cases are nickle plated and the talons are visible inside the hollow cavity.

They also told me what the source of this ammunition is. They buy it in bulk from police agencies across the country who are switching to another caliber. Botach buys their surplus and then resells it on their website. They said they still may get in some of the Ranger SXT from time to time, but over time they will probably see more of the Ranger (Gold) Talon, since this is what Winchester is now shipping in place of the Ranger SXT.

 

[Jim Higginbotham]

But, does anyone in the forum know if Winchester has the same LEO +P loading with a non-Lubalox bullet? Is this the Ranger Talon that has replaced the Ranger SXT? If so, are the bullet's expansion characteristics PRACTICALLY the same as the Lubalox variation?

Yes they now make the load with a non-coated bullet. The catalog number on our L.E. ammo is RA9TA... looks the same just without the black bullet and they have nickel cases.

Hope this helps,
Jim H.

 

[Guest]

This is from an earlier post, to save time I did not want to retype it.

Hope it helps.

Justin,
The Q2480 is not the Ranger Talon loading, it is a +P+ pressure loading using the conventional bullet.

The correct part number for the Ranger Talon 127gr loading is RA9SXTA in pre 2000 127gr +P+ and RA9SXTP in post 2000 brown box and RA9T (A for tagged) for year 2001.

Also, RA9SXT in 147gr. subsonic T loadings.

GA9SSXT in 158gr JHP subsonic T loading in specially marked nickled cases produced under contract run, white box only.

Some additional numbers for reference:
1. .40 S&W 180gr
RA40SXT pre 1999 is the T bullet, post 2000 the loading is RA40T.
Post 2000 standard non-T is the RA40180HP.

2. .40S&W 165gr RA40SXTA, pre 2000 T loading, brown box. Post 2000 is RA40TA

3. .45ACP 230gr RA45SXT, white box T bullet, post 2000 RA45T brown box T bullet.

4. .45acp 230gr+P RA45SXTP white and brown box T bullet at 900fps.

5. .357SIG 127gr RA357SIGT USSS standard issue loading using the T bullet, brown box only.

Uncataloged:

1. 9x23mm 127gr RA923T T bullet, brown box only not available for US Distribution.

2. .45ACP 250gr GA45SXT, subsonic 800fps, carbine loading, white box GOVT contract.

3. .44 Magnum 250gr RA44SXNT, 1,250fps loading for the US Forestry service, brown box uses the T bullet, white box is standard SXT. stamped "approved for carbine use".

4. .357 Magnum 125gr RA357SXTP, full power .357 loading white and brown box both use the T bullet, stamped "approved for carbine use".

5. .300 Win Magnum 190gr GA300RSXTM, 190gr BTHP T loading for special contract run using nickled cases, white box only.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-11-18 20:09 ]</font>

 

[charlesfmason]

I have some of this ammo and the primers are coated with a blue material. This substance leaves a lot of residue on the breech face and I am concerned about firing pin problems.
What is this material and is it cause for concern?
Thanks.

 

[Guest]

It should be primer sealant, although I do not remember having an issue like you describe.

It is quite possible since the ammo is really surplus/trade in ammo available on the open market that the previous agency spec'd something different.

Anyone?

 

[DesertRat]

I was looking on the Winchester website and came across a contact for their LE ammunition. He provided the following about Q4280:

"This ammunition is the same thing as our RA9SXTP without the black on the
bullet. This was a product made for NYPD who had a problem with the bullet
being black. It performs exactly like the RA9SXTP. The RA9SXTP product has
been discontinued with a newer better product called RA9TA. This product
has a slightly different bullet design with slightly larger hollowpoint
cavity and deeper scoring on the inside of the bullet jacket segments that
are inside of the hollowpoint cavity. The reason for this is to increase
the velocity window under which this round will expand. We did this because
there are many shorter barreled guns out there now that give lower
velocities than standard barrel lengths. With this change the new round
will expand properly whether fired in a standard or short barreled gun. We
also nickel plated the case on the new round for enhanced corrosion
resistance.

Sincerely,

Paul Nowak
Senior Technical Specialist
Winchester Law Enforcement Ammunition"

I think it is interesting that Winchester is attempting to address the expansion problems with lower velocity situations by tailoring the bullet design to a wider variety of conditions. At least, this appears to be the objective.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DesertRat on 2001-11-27 08:04 ]</font>

 

[Guest]

Can you forward to me Paul's contact information as this information is not correct and I would like to find out where he obtained it?

The RA9SXTP is a 127gr SXT bullet loading, it is not and has never been loaded with T series bullets RA9T and TA is a 147gr T series susbsonic loading.

It would be easier if you review their Law Enforcement catalog directly.

http://www.winchester.com/law/catalog/catalog.eye

 

[DesertRat]

David,

Here's the link I found Paul Nowak on. If you scroll to the bottom, you'll find a phone number for him as well.

http://www.winchester.com/law/news/news.eye?storyid=14

I did review the link you just provided, previously, and as you say you can't select a combination from their drop-down boxes that explains Q4280.

My assumption from his email is that NYPD probably had enough purchasing power to get Winchester to offer this variation via special order. If this is true, I guess I wouldn't expect them to bother with identifying it in their law catalog, IMO.

Regards,

Greg

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DesertRat on 2001-11-27 14:25 ]</font>

 

[DesertRat]

David,

Two questions: (1) Were you able to find out anything from the Winchester contact I provided? (2) Would you be interested in testing a sample of this Q4280 if you should be doing any future expansion/penetration tests? If so, I'd be happy to send you some.
All the posts I've read seem to focus on the question of whether it's the "same" as the talon bullet. Maybe the better question is "How does it perform, relative to other 127gr. +p+ loadings and other effective 9mm loadings?"

Regards,

Greg

 

[Guest]

Greg,
This loading will be included in my 9mm ammo roundup article coming soon.

*For you guys that have been waiting it is almost done and I really will post it soon, I have been so busy with work and clients that I have been very short on time, but it really is coming soon.

 

[Incursion]

I bought a case of this stuff. I've shot 150 rounds of the stuff. Unfortunately, I had a failure to extract in my P7M8. Needless to say, this did not inspire confidence. It was my first failure to extract in about 4640 rounds. I must add that a bunch of militec-1 did get on the rounds in my range bag, but I wiped it off. I doubt this could have caused the problem, but who knows. Is the P7 subject to limp wristing? I may have limp wristed the shot.

 

[charlesfmason]

Incursion,
Assuming that you are referring to 127g Winchester, some report that this ammo does not function 100% reliably in their P7s. Others have found that it does. Seems to vary. (See the Park Cities Tactical P7 forum for further info.)
I have not tested it in my P7/M8. A PD that I am familiar with didn't have any problems in their P7/M13s.
(FWIW, this ammo has functioned 100% in my Beretta 92.)
I don't think your problem is limp wristing, especially given your history with the gun, as well as the fact that P7s seem resistant to this.

 

[charlesfmason]

Incursion, I should have read the other thread before posting my reply. Seems that you are already familiar with what I pointed out.
I apologize for the wasted bandwidth.

 

[Guest]

I have been shooting this stuff for the past two years in my P7s and have yet to have an issue, but anything is possible and FWIW, I will not carry/depend on a gun ammo combination that has not fired at least 2000rds of my desired combo.

A case is a good start but you can also save quite a bit of money and time by purchasing 5-10 cases at a time that way you can break in the pistol with your chosen ammo and still have a few K rounds to test with without having to worry about changes in the ammo and using seperate lot numbers.