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Those numbers would seem to be from an earlier bullet design as they do not mimic what I have seen in early June when testing some more of the white box ammo?

The expansion numbers even when clogged are well below what I have seen and read.

Also, in testing the standard commercial box Winchester Supreme JHP rounds are very poor.
I would not reccomend the use of this round in .45acp.

In .40S&W you do not gain a single additional advantage and you give up expanded diameter and bullet penetration to move to the new "wonder" .165gr bullets.

The 165gr JHP is yet another solution to a problem that does not exist outside of the marketing offices.

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Think, Plan, Train, Be Safe.
Thanks
David

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: David DiFabio on 2001-08-03 09:30 ]</font>
 

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Could be; that's from 94.

I thought 230/45s were the same bullet; the 180/40 USA JHP looks like the same bullet as the original/present subsonic load too (XSUB40SW)? The 115/9 looks like the Silvertip w a different color? Same bullet as the Ranger load (RA9MMJHP)?

The 165/180 40 Supreme SXT loads do much better than the 230/45 S/SXT, as do the 155/180 40 PMC Starfire compared to the 230/45 Starfire. Wouldn't surprise me if the USA JHP/subsonic 40 did better than the 45 too.

The FBI's latest contract for 40 ammo went to the Speer 165 GD; they consider tactical barrier penetration very important.

Into gallon plastic jugs of water through 4 layers of denim:

165 S/SXT (1060) 4 jugs/.69
180 S/SXT (980) 4/.69
165 PMC JHP (985) 4/.66
180 PMC SF (980) 4/.80(!)

The 165 Win S/SXT, GS, GD, Proload, PMC, Fed Tactical, Win Ranger/PG, seem fine to me. The Fed HS doesn't expand as well as they do, but it penetrates just fine.

The 165 PMC load really surprised me; looks like a "best buy" along w the 180 USA JHP? Sanow claims 13/.68 in gel, even after cloth.

I think the 155/180 SF loads are underated too BTW. If you want a light/fast 40 (some do), the 155 SF is as good as any, better than some IMO. Into the 2nd jug at .89, rips em up and splashes water like a Glaser, Quick-Shok, Triton RHHP, etc.

Some people get too anal? If your std is 12/.65, you can fail a load that does 11.9/.71 (180 SF) or 14/.64 (180 XTP), but if you like em and your gun shoots em better I would not let .1 or .01 of an inch get in the way.

_________________
Mike >>>>----->

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: MichaelOrick on 2001-08-14 13:56 ]</font>
 
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Agreed,
Small dimensions (handgun wound channels) are really about nitpicking.

Since we are splitting hairs I'm glad that my standards are not 12" in gelatin too....

12" in gelatin is ok for large dogs, medium size cats or maybe large rabbits anything that can be accomplished in 4-6" of tissue.

I for one hope that the gun magazines and "popular theory" keep pimping these 12" loads as ideal, that way if I am ever shot again the criminal(s) will be at a very distinct disadvantage....

Seriously, any criminals or terrorists reading this board, please buy and carry these bullets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I was thinking the same thing :smile: . This is why I prefer those unsexy Win. USA JHP's--Penetration, and lots of it :grin: .
 

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Problem is the folks (INS/BP, Marshals, Secret Service, Texas DPS, etc) who think the low pen stuff like the 110/125 Mag, 115 +P+ 9MM, 155/40 worked/works better for them than the deeper pen stuff like the 158/38, 147/9, and 230/45?

Then ya got the CHP who thinks the 180/40 is better for them than the 125 Mag ever was. LAPD and LASD use a 147/9, NYPD a 124 +P (but it does penetrate like crazy: 20/.53 after cloth). So do most of the 357SIG loads (19/.54 cloth). Having our energy cake and eating our penetration cake too?

I worked an area where most of the folks were shot with light Magnums and heavy 45s; "Stopping power" seemed a toss up to me despite the greatly different energy/penetration profiles.

Round n round we go, again and again...

Hit em first, better, and often, don't give up, ever. Using something w a stock helps too. :wink:
 

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Earlier today I put 100 rounds of the W/W USA 230 H.P's through a Springfield Armory which chokes on Hydra Shok's,and 100 rounds through a pre-Series 70 Commander which has NOT been throated. Accuracy was great with the Springfield, OK with the Colt, and 100% function with both pistols. Love the price, also.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Yup.
Item number for .45 is USA45JHP
Item number for .40 is USA40JHP

I get mine from Wal-Mart, but http://www.cheaperthandirt.com is a great place to deal with.

I fired another 250 rounds of assorted .40 and .45 today, with the usual excellent results :smile: .
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I fired four rounds of the Win. USA .40 JHP load into wet newsprint covered with a M-65 field jacket liner, doubled over, and to my suprise expansion and penetration was pretty much the same. I didn't take any serious measurements, I just compared them with the previous test rounds. I'm really suprised that this load performs as well as it does, considering the small hollowpoint cavity compared to most of the premium varieties, like the Gold Dot and Golden Saber.
I really like being able to afford to shoot my carry load whenever I like :smile: .
 
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When moving to a traditional premium bullet like the Golden Saber you only gain small percents of performance in common materials.

In a clear unobstructed shot only a bullet that adds cutting or fragmentation can increase the wound size levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I'm going to test the Win. USA JHP'S from a Glock 30 and a Glock 27 when I get a chance. If anyone gets the opportunity to do so, by all means post the results.

I am pretty sure that there will be very little difference in the penetration and expansion results compared to a longer barrel. Velocity makes very little difference in my experience. Bullet design tend to determine actual results.

Too much velocity is far worse than not enough, IMHO. Raising the speed of a bullet that already expands and penetrates well will only have a negative effect. Speed doesn't cause a bullet to be "deadlier" or have more "stopping power", at least not in handguns.
 

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On 2001-09-18 19:23, David DiFabio wrote:
Even if it went up to 1,000fps the wound channel would not change.

If you like the load carry it.
I was under the impression from following posts in this area that the +P loads, as in the Ranger and the Black Hills GD 230 gr, were "better" loads for self defense. Are you saying that normal velocity loads are just as effective? With their better controllability (is that a word?) normal velocity loads should allow faster followup shots. Are there advantages to a +P load? Or are the advantages so slight as to be moot?

Thanks
 
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The answer is not an easy generic one such as "faster is better" or "slower is better".

The construction of the Black Hills loads using GD bullets refrenced is very different from the Winchester loadings.
When designing a load the engineers must evaluate the possible effective velocity range for the bullet in question.

If the bullet is effective at a lower velocity indicating a softer construction, driving it to a faster velocity will only cause it to expand more raidly and in some cases will cause a comlete failure of the bullets construction leading to jacket/core seperation and fragmentation.

To effectively increase the wound channel size using this load would require a velocity increase from the base line of 850fps from the G27 to approx. 1,100 fps depending on the test medium used.

The GD bullet brought into question is substantially harder and more resistant to expansion, this type of "reinforced" bullet requires a given velocity to expand, the sump/cavity in the bullet is designed to operate at a base velocity, going below baseline will result in a bullet that may or may not expand in living tissues.
 

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David,
I understand, I think. If I have it right, you will get about the same expansion from both the Win JHP and the premium GD Black Hills +P load. However, all other things being equal, you would get deeper penetration from the GD due to it's increased velocity. Is that correct or did I totally go off track?

If that is correct, how much deeper penetration would you get? Let's stick with gelatin since bodies are so nonuniform. :smile:

Bill
 

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So if I understand this correct then my question about the Win JHP traveling under 800fps is not as much of an issue because the bullet will expand as designed (softer material?) in that range. However the GD bullet being referenced would not since it was designed for a higher velocity?

Since these bullets and loads are desiged together and I "believe" usually designed for a 5" barrel, what implications is that on the shorter barrel guns. I.E. is 40-60fps less in any case not that major of an issue?
 
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